X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-da05.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.147] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4388800 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 12:32:56 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.147; envelope-from=SHIPCHIEF@aol.com Received: from imo-da01.mx.aol.com (imo-da01.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.199]) by imr-da05.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o6BGWFvH008123 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 12:32:15 -0400 Received: from SHIPCHIEF@aol.com by imo-da01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.ce9.772d641a (45280) for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 12:32:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-mc01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-mc01.mx.aol.com [64.12.95.97]) by cia-mc04.mx.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMC042-d3cc4c39f206286; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 12:32:10 -0400 Received: from webmail-m016 (webmail-m016.sim.aol.com [64.12.101.100]) by smtprly-mc01.mx.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMC016-d3cc4c39f206286; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 12:32:06 -0400 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: High test and turbos Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 12:32:06 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 24.19.204.151 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: shipchief@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CCEF2DBC2A5F7D_704_22283_webmail-m016.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 32213-STANDARD Received: from 24.19.204.151 by webmail-m016.sysops.aol.com (64.12.101.100) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 11 Jul 2010 12:32:06 -0400 Message-Id: <8CCEF2DBC20D9F5-704-1124C@webmail-m016.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: SHIPCHIEF@aol.com ----------MB_8CCEF2DBC2A5F7D_704_22283_webmail-m016.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lynn: DITTO Kelly's request.=20 I have a 'street ported' 1988 13B Turbo with a Turbonetics 60-1, and Tracy= 's EC-2 & RD-1 gear. It's in an RV-8 and is not (yet) intercooled. I have a CATTO 2 blade prop= the same pitch & diameter as he builds for a 180 HP O-360 powered RV-8 (l= eft turning of course). I simply extrapolated the rpm from 2700 for the ra= ted 180 hp, to estimate 200 HP @ 3000, which would be a good RPM for the= 13b, about 6570 RPM. I have 1.2 hours ground run time at this time. Cooling upgrades seem to wo= rk well, with max rpm during test 3600 so far... Van designed the RV-8 for 200 HP, so I am building to that as a goal for= the initial flight test, but would like to refine the A/C and powerplant= as I gain experience, and install a CATTO 3 blade. what power draw would= require intercooling, and what kind of safety margins should be considere= d, like instrumentation, and such? Greg Richter talked me out of waste gat= es and blow off valves, because they are heavy and complex. He said don't= worry about it, unless ground or flight tests demonstrate a need for it.? Scott E -----Original Message----- From: Kelly Troyer To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:01 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: High test and turbos Lynn, What would be your educated guess for the ignition advance to avoid de= tonation for a side housing intake 13B (intercooled to <130 f ) , 9.4 to 1 comp= rotors , 87 octane (no alcohol) and turbo boost limited to 10 in/hg (5 psi) ?? .......= ........... =20 Thanks =20 Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 From: "Lehanover@aol.com" To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, July 10, 2010 11:24:27 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] High test and turbos When the SCCA forced us rotary people to use racing gas Darryl Drummond Dy= noed one engine with both fuels Street high test 97 Octane and VP 110 Octa= ne racing. The racing fuel cost 4 HP over the street gas. The SCCA relente= d and we got to use street gas again. You get the power back from racing gas by running 14:1 compression ratios. =20 I use 87 Octane for racing. No alcohol of course.=20 =20 Alcohol =3D 80,000 BTUs. =20 Typical street motor fuel regular no alcohol =3D 119,000 BTUs. =20 Low sulphur #2 diesel=3D 130,000 BTUs. =20 Bunker C=20 (Used on old ships) =3D 145,000 BTUs =20 =20 The turbo charged rotary should be thought of as a different engine. Only= similar to a rotary.=20 The boost allows for over filling the chamber with mixture so that the eng= ine is (in effect) larger in displacement. This increased volume of mixtur= e is compressed into the same head space as the NA engine, so the effectiv= e compression ratio goes up. Maybe way up dependent on boost pressure. So= the compression ratio becomes variable as the RPM go up and down. More bo= ost means higher heat of compression, so if more than a few pounds are use= d, an intercooler is used to reduce the intake air temperature.=20 =20 Remember that detonation is charge temperature dependent.=20 =20 The turbo engine is typically more efficient than the NA engine due to the= higher effective compression ratio. The cold combustion chamber helps in= the turbo so higher boost can be used without detonation problems. Less= unburned fuel is left behind, and what is keeps energy to the turbo high.= Energy removed from the exhaust to spin the turbo reduces muffling proble= ms. For high boost engines the ignition map is nearly backwards. At high= boost the timing comes back towards zero advance, as flame speeds in the= high pressure chamber go way up. The ignition system must be programmable= .=20 =20 Lynn E. Hanover ----------MB_8CCEF2DBC2A5F7D_704_22283_webmail-m016.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Lynn:
DITTO Kelly's request.
I have a 'street ported' 1988 13B Turbo with a Turbonetics 60-1, and= Tracy's EC-2 & RD-1 gear.
It's in an RV-8 and is not (yet) intercooled. I have a CATTO 2= blade prop the same pitch & diameter as he builds for a 180 HP O= -360 powered RV-8 (left turning of course). I simply extrapolated the rpm= from 2700 for the rated 180 hp, to estimate 200 HP @ 3000, which would be= a good RPM for the 13b, about 6570 RPM.
I have 1.2 hours ground run time at this time. Cooling upgrades seem= to work well, with max rpm during test 3600 so far...
Van designed the RV-8 for 200 HP, so I am building to that as a goal= for the initial flight test, but would like to refine the A/C and powerpl= ant as I gain experience, and install a CATTO 3 blade. what power draw wou= ld require intercooling, and what kind of safety margins should be conside= red, like instrumentation, and such? Greg Richter talked me out of waste= gates and blow off valves, because they are heavy and complex. He said do= n't worry about it, unless ground or flight tests demonstrate a need for= it.?
Scott E



-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Troyer <keltro@att.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, Jul 11, 2010 7:01 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: High test and turbos

Lynn,
    What would be your educated guess for the ign= ition advance to avoid detonation
 for  a side housing intake 13B (intercooled to <130 f= ) , 9.4 to 1 comp rotors , 87
octane (no alcohol) and turbo boost limited to 10 in/hg (5 psi)= ?? ..................
 
Thanks
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20

=
From: "Lehanover@aol.com" <Lehanover@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft <flyrotary@lancairon= line.net>
Sent: Sat, July 10, 2010= 11:24:27 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] High= test and turbos

When the SCCA forced us rotary people to use racing gas Darryl Drummo= nd Dynoed one engine with both fuels Street high test 97 Octane and VP 110= Octane racing. The racing fuel cost 4 HP over the street gas. The SCCA re= lented and we got to use street gas again.
You get the power back from racing gas by running 14:1 compression ra= tios.
 
I use 87 Octane for racing. No alcohol of course.
 
Alcohol =3D         &nbs= p;          80,000 BTUs.
 
Typical street motor fuel
regular no alcohol =3D 119,000 BTUs.
 
Low sulphur #2 diesel=3D 130,000 BTUs.
 
Bunker C
(Used on old ships) =3D 145,000 BTUs  
 
The turbo charged rotary should be thought of as a different engine.= Only similar to a rotary.
The boost allows for over filling the chamber with mixture so th= at the engine is (in effect) larger in displacement. This increased volume= of mixture is compressed into the same head space as the NA engine, so th= e effective compression ratio goes up. Maybe way up dependent on boost pre= ssure.  So the compression ratio becomes variable as the RPM go up an= d down. More boost means higher heat of compression, so if more than a few= pounds are used, an intercooler is used to reduce the intake air temperat= ure.
 
Remember that detonation is charge temperature dependent.
 
The turbo engine is typically more efficient than the NA engine due= to the higher effective  compression ratio. The cold combustion cham= ber helps in the turbo so higher boost can be used without detonation prob= lems. Less unburned fuel is left behind, and what is keeps energy to the= turbo high. Energy removed from the exhaust to spin the turbo reduces muf= fling problems. For high boost engines the ignition map is nearly bac= kwards. At high boost the timing comes back towards zero advance, as flame= speeds in the high pressure chamber go way up. The ignition system must= be programmable.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
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