X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.92.101] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with SMTP id 4388679 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 10:01:50 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.147.92.101; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: (qmail 95223 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jul 2010 14:01:14 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1278856874; bh=Qq4zA0HeeXZXQymFWN2gpJEqMz7ag6UrbwlUNrzKJlA=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Pa66CIQOhTVDN/17okhwjhgtwqXlT+wpKsSvuG4rStFWk8XniGezEwKQSkR/gmX+Q3M9maboJZy3OWhWPj7DEwP6/+XHffjQYcQo2AUbGei0jm5g1nza8CDYVTIX+DVwt4SUPGfRMYpaKUvIgHnyPGHkvY/PXLCy4OS5YvhjRA0= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=zv0y9Q8tYBHlEqqAEF2ccFwAFsQOBkdhSdbaAiwmr5P4+FzwmZz1wya92keJjKNzD2PIVF0HqDWwI0NLgdq9xNHUg/S8aLmdzZIxb3/3oe8jr2UN2MlsafYfL6eZki/MRnI7dQkp+pu4FJtLI6JnVw9vJocfosOAoKvaj8dr+qw=; Message-ID: <369898.93695.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: _wgZ38cVM1k5Mxnh4VBoCX4mm8fkRI4xS0AKmH4TXlc1zcR pHxSqHPwJSsThjHIzCo.T40IFgS8OOGv7pe4PpWSnVtIMadzggqQHEafto0v ju4q0k65.2rd.RIyYwx.SabykXRtDBQFYNp9XulqQtMy5BT8_Zyjmt8up2i_ 9W7J9_5cUNoN9U.KvbhshSlNkQsHEhyDvmu1AkeIfcBgbi4goic2rCRMcurX x7txkqcIxFB0OX7GilLa6uYeMi9eVh43exKWu7amcS1T.W44GpFvM9cUXpjT LW.tNVTMcRDkiogXKJF.dXWvZ4My4ZhY25g4sd9VG49f28jKQI1RlqM5lDLG CIM42VNKUEC3qgdoTp2PN5g-- Received: from [208.114.47.14] by web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 07:01:14 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/420.4 YahooMailWebService/0.8.104.274457 References: Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 07:01:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Troyer Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] High test and turbos To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1281208453-1278856874=:93695" --0-1281208453-1278856874=:93695 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn,=0A=A0=A0=A0 What would be your educated guess for the=A0ignition adva= nce to avoid =0Adetonation=0A=A0for=A0 a side housing intake 13B=A0(interco= oled to <130 f ) , 9.4 to 1 comp rotors =0A, 87=0Aoctane (no alcohol) and t= urbo=A0boost limited to 10 in/hg (5 psi) =0A??=A0..................=0A=0ATh= anks=0AKelly Troyer=0A"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=0A"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2= =0A"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________= ________=0AFrom: "Lehanover@aol.com" =0ATo: Rotary motor= s in aircraft =0ASent: Sat, July 10, 2010 11:2= 4:27 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] High test and turbos=0A=0AWhen the SCCA forc= ed us rotary people to use racing gas Darryl Drummond Dynoed =0Aone engine = with both fuels Street high test 97 Octane and VP 110 Octane racing. =0AThe= racing fuel cost 4 HP over the street gas. The SCCA relented and we got to= =0Ause street gas again.=0AYou get the power back from racing gas by runni= ng 14:1 compression ratios.=0A=0AI use 87 Octane for racing. No alcohol of = course. =0A=0AAlcohol =3D=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0 80,000 BTUs.=0A=0ATypical street motor fuel=0Aregular no alcohol = =3D 119,000 BTUs.=0A=0ALow sulphur #2 diesel=3D 130,000 BTUs.=0A=0ABunker C= =0A(Used on old ships)=A0=3D 145,000 BTUs=A0=A0 =0A=0AThe turbo charged ro= tary should be thought of as a different engine. Only =0Asimilar to a rotar= y. =0A=0AThe boost allows for over=A0filling the chamber with mixture so th= at the engine is =0A(in effect) larger in displacement. This increased volu= me of mixture is =0Acompressed into the same head space as the NA engine, s= o the effective =0Acompression ratio goes up. Maybe way up dependent on boo= st pressure. =A0So the =0Acompression ratio becomes variable as the RPM go = up and down. More boost means =0Ahigher heat of compression, so if more tha= n a few pounds are used, an =0Aintercooler is used to reduce the intake air= temperature. =0A=0A=0ARemember that detonation is charge temperature depen= dent. =0A=0AThe turbo engine is typically more efficient than the NA engine= due to the =0Ahigher effective =A0compression ratio. The cold combustion c= hamber helps in the =0Aturbo so higher boost can be used without detonation= problems. Less unburned =0Afuel is left behind, and what is keeps energy t= o the turbo high. Energy removed =0Afrom the exhaust to spin the turbo redu= ces muffling problems.=A0For high boost =0Aengines the ignition map is near= ly backwards. At high boost the timing comes =0Aback towards zero advance, = as flame speeds in the high pressure chamber go way =0Aup. The ignition sys= tem must be programmable. =0A=0A=0ALynn E. Hanover --0-1281208453-1278856874=:93695 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=0A
Lynn,
=0A
    What would be= your educated guess for the ignition advance to avoid detonation
&= nbsp;for  a side housing intake 13B (intercooled to <130 f ) ,= 9.4 to 1 comp rotors , 87
=0A
octane (no alcohol) and turbo = boost limited to 10 in/hg (5 psi) ?? ..................
=0A
&= nbsp;
=0A
Thanks
=0A
 
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke De= lta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Man= ifold =0A

=0A

=0A
=0A=
=0AFrom: "Leha= nover@aol.com" <Lehanover@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.= net>
Sent: Sat, July = 10, 2010 11:24:27 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] High test and turbos

=0A
When the SCCA forced us ro= tary people to use racing gas Darryl Drummond Dynoed one engine with both f= uels Street high test 97 Octane and VP 110 Octane racing. The racing fuel c= ost 4 HP over the street gas. The SCCA relented and we got to use street ga= s again.
=0A
You get the power back from racing gas by running 14:= 1 compression ratios.
=0A
 
=0A
I use 87 Octane for = racing. No alcohol of course.
=0A
 
=0A
Alcohol =3D=             &nb= sp;       80,000 BTUs.
=0A
 =0A
Typical street motor fuel
=0A
regular no alcohol =3D 11= 9,000 BTUs.
=0A
 
=0A
Low sulphur #2 diesel=3D 130,0= 00 BTUs.
=0A
 
=0A
Bunker C
=0A
(Used on o= ld ships) =3D 145,000 BTUs  
=0A
 
=0AThe turbo charged rotary should be thought of as a different engine. Onl= y similar to a rotary.
=0A
The boost allows for over filling= the chamber with mixture so that the engine is (in effect) larger in displ= acement. This increased volume of mixture is compressed into the same head = space as the NA engine, so the effective compression ratio goes up. Maybe w= ay up dependent on boost pressure.  So the compression ratio becomes v= ariable as the RPM go up and down. More boost means higher heat of compress= ion, so if more than a few pounds are used, an intercooler is used to reduc= e the intake air temperature.
=0A
 
=0A
Remember th= at detonation is charge temperature dependent.
=0A
 
= =0A
The turbo engine is typically more efficient than the NA engine due= to the higher effective  compression ratio. The cold combustion chamb= er helps in the turbo so higher boost can be used without detonation proble= ms. Less unburned fuel is left behind, and what is keeps energy to the turb= o high. Energy removed from the exhaust to spin the turbo reduces muffling = problems. For high boost engines the ignition map is nearly backwards.= At high boost the timing comes back towards zero advance, as flame speeds = in the high pressure chamber go way up. The ignition system must be program= mable.
=0A
 
=0A
Lynn E. Hanover
=
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