X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-da02.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.144] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4387222 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 09 Jul 2010 18:23:18 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.144; envelope-from=WRJJRS@aol.com Received: from imo-da03.mx.aol.com (imo-da03.mx.aol.com [205.188.169.201]) by imr-da02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o69MMbXC014688 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 18:22:37 -0400 Received: from WRJJRS@aol.com by imo-da03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.d5e.6a95f50f (45478) for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 18:22:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-me02.mx.aol.com (smtprly-me02.mx.aol.com [64.12.95.103]) by cia-mc06.mx.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMC067-b2cf4c379ff3183; Fri, 09 Jul 2010 18:22:31 -0400 Received: from webmail-m088 (webmail-m088.sim.aol.com [64.12.224.203]) by smtprly-me02.mx.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYME026-b2cf4c379ff3183; Fri, 09 Jul 2010 18:17:23 -0400 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 18:17:23 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 65.113.35.181 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: wrjjrs@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CCEDCBA3A9C208_518_1A299_webmail-m088.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 32213-STANDARD Received: from 65.113.35.181 by webmail-m088.sysops.aol.com (64.12.224.203) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Fri, 09 Jul 2010 18:17:23 -0400 Message-Id: <8CCEDCBA39B79C2-518-C7DE@webmail-m088.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: WRJJRS@aol.com ----------MB_8CCEDCBA3A9C208_518_1A299_webmail-m088.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark, The Det Gun itself isn't very complex but the control system and product= feed system are the tough problems. By the time you build one it woould= be cheaper to buy one from a supplier. That said it probably could be don= e. I am working with a setup that wll be much cheaper but will weigh about= a pound more than an aluminum housing. It will be for P-port only though. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Fri, Jul 9, 2010 2:49 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report This may be a dumb question, but how hard would it be to build a det-gun= machine? Anyone ever messed with one to know how they are built and how= they work? =20 Mark On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 11:31 AM, wrote: George, Mostly correct, But det-gun application applies ceramic particles into the= aluminum, not steel. The particles are partially imbedded which is why th= e process works so well. The application REQUIRES diamond lapping. I have= inquired recently and the price has NOT come down. Bill -----Original Message----- From: George Lendich To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, Jul 8, 2010 9:41 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report =20 Mark, We are singing from the same sheet of music. I need the weight reduction= more than you, or should I say no one needs it more than me. I am working= on a single 13B similar to Richard's 12A. Actually Powersports light weig= ht engine used components out of both the 12A and 13B, the 12A e-shaft mos= tly, I'm using my own single crank, 13B rotor housing Renesis rotor (thei= r cheaper- half price in fact) and looking to Bill Jepson's end housings.= I told Bill I wanted a Titanium rotor and light weight water pump but it= will all take time to just get the basics like P-port inserts and end hou= sings manufacture up and running. It never happens soon enough does it. Bill did mention the cost of Det-gun application it was very high, but can= 't remember. There is no something that's almost as good. Mistral tried ev= erything and they all failed. It doesn't matter how good the surface or ho= w hard the surface is, it's the substrate that fails, taking the surface= with it. Aluminium is a soft substrate. Det-gun application pushes steel= into the surface a good depth eliminating the substrate failure. I'm wondering how Mazda handles the wear issue in the 16X, however there's= so many 13B's out there will still be a strong demand for parts for likes= of Aviation and racing. George ( down under) George, =20 I can't help but wonder why the cost for detonation gun coatings hasn't co= me down with time. How expensive is "expensive"? Maybe we could settle= for something almost as good but half the cost? I wish Richard, Bill and all the others who are working on the problem gre= at success. Maybe Mazda will decide to move ahead with their aluminum 16X= engine in the near future. That would pretty much solve the weight probl= em for us. =20 Mark =20 On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 5:58 PM, George Lendich wrot= e: Mark, The secret to Richards design is an expensive cast iron mould - so if anyt= hing does happen to him, that's the end of it anyway.=20 =20 Although , like Tracy, I admire his efforts as not many people could accom= plish what he has done, I wish I had thought of the Powersport type carbon= steel, oven brazed housings, that Bill Jepson is redesigning for the home= built use. =20 The problem with end housings is the need for strong flat wear surfaces co= uple with light weight. Naturally aluminium is light weight but the only= reasonable wear surface to date has been Det-gun application and that's= expensive. Richard opted to go the cast iron wear surface ( which is ver= y good) and because it is a flat area it has to be thick so as not to flex= under load, this he coupled with a aluminium half housing. The carbon st= eel housings that Powersport developed is all steel, machined to exacting= tolerances and brazed together in an over while being clamped in a jig (= I assume). =20 =20 Although aluminium is lighter than steel, the steel housings are only 1 lb= heavier, I assume because the walls can be thinner. This would still be= lighter than Richards composite housing. =20 There are other technologies coming to the fore like sintered laser techno= logy where powered metal is laid down in thin layers at a time and then me= lted by the laser. This can be done to exacting specification and comes ou= t much like high quality casts - with high density. Only the material need= ed is fused, the other falls from the item as it's removed from it's conta= iner. The thing I like about this technology is that's there very little= machining ( which is expensive) and little waste. Different materials ca= n be used so as hard points can be built in as the item is constructed. I= would like to see a Titanium rotor built with hard points ( built in stee= l strips) for seal areas. I think you will see much more of this in the= future, however I assume it is quite expense at this stage. Commercial re= ality drives these technologies, so we might see these things sooner rathe= r than later - I hope. George ( down under) Step 1 should read, "Machine the aluminum side housings from billet alumin= um per attached drawings." The real issue is that I would hate to see all of Richard's excellent work= lost if anything were to happen to him. It would turn into another story= of some mystical rotary engine stored away in a garage somewhere for deca= des, never to run again. The "hairy-chested hero" group needs to do more= to further the rotary movement for those that will follow. Otherwise, we= will keep reinventing the same old wheel over and over again. Mark On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Tracy Crook wro= te: how about a "how to" manual?=20 After following Richard's impressive effort over the years, I can just ima= gine that manual. Step 1. Machine the aluminum side housings from billet aluminum. Step 2 Cast the iron wear surfaces and machine the o-ring grooves to= seal the water jacket area. =20 . . . Step 302 ........... Some projects aren't suited to DIY manuals. If you had the talent & abili= ty to follow the instructions, you probably wouldn't need the manual at al= l. It sure is way beyond what I could tackle. Tracy=20 On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: Well then, how about a "how to" manual? =20 Mark On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Richard Sohn wrote: As soon as someone shows up with a couple million bucks. =20 Richard Sohn N2071U ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 9:22 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report Richard, =20 That works for me, RES12 it is. So, when do you start selling these littl= e jewels? =20 =20 Mark On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Richard Sohn wrote: Whatever, I call it the RES12. If there is a 13B based version in the futu= re it will be a RES13. =20 Richard Sohn N2071U ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 1:19 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report Richard,=20 Then, wouldn't you refer to half a 12A as a 6A? =20 Mark On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Richard Sohn wrote: Yes Mark, =20 the airframe is my AVID Heavy Hauler, which I flew for 10 years with a SOO= B. Airframe mods are done, and the engine is on the test stand for shake= down runs.=20 I would call that engine a 12B because it uses a 12A rotor and rotor housi= ng. =20 Richard Sohn N2071U =20 ----------MB_8CCEDCBA3A9C208_518_1A299_webmail-m088.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Mark,
The Det Gun itself isn't very complex but the control system and prod= uct feed system are the tough problems. By the time you build one it wooul= d be cheaper to buy one from a supplier. That said it probably could be do= ne. I am working with a setup that wll be much cheaper but will weigh abou= t a pound more than an aluminum housing. It will be for P-port only though= .
 
Bill Jepson



-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, Jul 9, 2010 2:49 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report

This may be a= dumb question, but how hard would it be to build a det-gun machine?  = ;Anyone ever messed with one to know how they are built and how they work?=  

Mark

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 11:31 AM, = <wrjjrs@aol.com> wrote:=
George,
Mostly correct, But det-gun application applies ceramic particles int= o the aluminum, not steel. The particles are partially imbedded which is= why the process works so well. The application REQUIRES diamond lapping.= I have inquired recently and the price has NOT come down.
Bill



-----Original Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@a= anet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, Jul 8, 2010 9:41 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report

 
Mark,
We are singing from the same sheet of musi= c. I need the weight reduction more than you, or should I say no one needs= it more than me. I am working on a single 13B similar to Richard's 12A.= Actually Powersports light weight engine used components out of both the= 12A and 13B, the 12A e-shaft mostly, I'm using  my own single crank,= 13B rotor housing Renesis rotor (their cheaper- half price in fact) and= looking to Bill Jepson's end housings. I told Bill I wanted a Titanium ro= tor and light weight water pump but it will all take time to just get the= basics like P-port inserts and end housings manufacture up and running.= It never happens soon enough does it.
Bill did mention the cost of Det-gun appli= cation it was very high, but can't remember. There is no something that's= almost as good. Mistral tried everything and they all failed. It doesn't= matter how good the surface or how hard the surface is, it's the substrat= e that fails, taking the surface with it. Aluminium is a soft substrate.&n= bsp; Det-gun application pushes steel into the surface a good depth elimin= ating the substrate failure.
I'm wondering how Mazda handles the wear= issue in the 16X, however there's so many 13B's out there will still be= a strong demand for parts for likes of Aviation and racing.
George ( down under)

George, =20

I can't help but wonder why the cost for detonation gun coatings hasn= 't come down with time.  How expensive is "expensive"?   Maybe= we could settle for something almost as good but half the cost?

I wish Richard, Bill and all the others who are working on the proble= m great success.  Maybe Mazda will decide to move ahead with their al= uminum 16X engine in the near future.  That would pretty much solve= the weight problem for us.  

Mark  



On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 5:58 PM, George Lendich <lendich@aanet.co= m.au> wrote:
Mark,
The secret to Richards design is an expen= sive cast iron mould - so if anything does happen to him, that's the end= of it anyway.
 
Although , like Tracy, I admire his effor= ts as not many people could= accomplish what he has done, I wish I had thought of the Powersport type= carbon steel, oven brazed housings, that Bill Jepson is redesigning for= the homebuilt use.
 
The problem with end housings is the need= for strong flat wear surfaces couple with light weight. Naturally al= uminium is light weight but the only reasonable wear surface to date has= been Det-gun application and that's expensive. Richard opted to go the ca= st iron wear surface  ( which is very good) and because it is a flat= area it has to be thick so as not to flex under load, this he coupled wit= h a aluminium  half housing. The carbon steel housings that Powerspor= t developed is all steel, machined to exacting tolerances and brazed= together in an over while being clamped in a jig ( I assume).  =
 
Although aluminium is lighter than steel,= the steel housings are only 1 lb heavier, I assume because the walls= can be thinner. This would still be lighter than Richards composite housi= ng.
 
There are other technologies coming to th= e fore like sintered laser technology where powered metal is laid down in= thin layers at a time and then melted by the laser. This can be done to= exacting specification and comes out much like high quality casts - with= high density. Only the material needed is fused, the other falls from the= item as it's removed from it's container. The thing I like about this tec= hnology is that's there very little machining ( which is expensive) and li= ttle waste.  Different materials can be used so as hard points= can be built in as the item is constructed. I would like to see a Titaniu= m rotor built with hard points ( built in steel  strips) for seal are= as. I think you will see much more of this in the future, however I assume= it is quite expense at this stage. Commercial reality drives these= technologies, so we might see these things sooner rather than later - I= hope.
George ( down under)
Step 1 sh= ould read, "Machine the aluminum side housings from billet aluminum per= attached drawings."

The real issue is that I would hate to see all of Richard's excellent= work lost if anything were to happen to him.  It would turn into ano= ther story of some mystical rotary engine stored away in a garage somewher= e for decades, never to run again.  The "hairy-chested hero" group ne= eds to do more to further the rotary movement for those that will follow.=  Otherwise, we will keep reinventing the same old wheel over and ove= r again.

Mark


On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryavi= ation.com> wrote:
how about a "how to" manual?=

After following Richard's impressive effort over the years, I can just ima= gine that manual.

Step 1.    Machine the aluminum side housings from billet= aluminum.
Step 2     Cast the iron wear surfaces and machine the o-ri= ng grooves to seal the water jacket area. 
.
.
.
Step 302  ...........

Some projects aren't suited to DIY manuals.  If you had the talent &a= mp; ability to follow the instructions, you probably wouldn't need the man= ual at all.  It sure is way beyond what I could tackle.

Tracy

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Well then, how abou= t a "how to" manual?  =20

Mark

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Richard Sohn <res12@fairpoint.ne= t> wrote:
As soon as someone shows up with a couple= million bucks.
 
Richard Sohn
N2071U
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 9:22= AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Rep= ort

Richard,
 
That works for me, RES12 it is.  So, when do you start selling= these little jewels?   
 
Mark

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Richard Sohn <res12@fairpoint.net= > wrote:
Whatever, I call it the RES12. If there= is a 13B based version in the future it will be a RES13.
 
Richard Sohn
N2071U
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 1:19= PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Rep= ort

Richard,=20

Then, wouldn't you refer to half a 12A as a 6A?  

Mark

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Richard Sohn <res12@fairpoint.ne= t> wrote:
Yes Mark,
 
the airframe is my AVID Heavy Hauler, whi= ch I flew for 10 years with a SOOB. Airframe mods are done, and the engine= is on the test stand for shake down runs.
I would call that engine a 12B because it= uses a 12A rotor and rotor housing.
 
Richard Sohn
N2071U
 






=3D ----------MB_8CCEDCBA3A9C208_518_1A299_webmail-m088.sysops.aol.com--