X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-iw0-f180.google.com ([209.85.214.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4387181 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 09 Jul 2010 17:49:53 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.180; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by iwn8 with SMTP id 8so2542560iwn.25 for ; Fri, 09 Jul 2010 14:49:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=F5aVx6Ektn8wMk6+eSFv6RdgS12pftNwK/ObwHdIbuw=; b=dtmWs7tYQ4Wo/HkOmCYN3D/QSiPTACdii2TX91BQS6xV1JNoyBkXZh42oy+9sxZOkK QkErFO3uNwBch9MFn8WO6r0juW8TyPp9zew0sqUfniuV9FNYR16jaa9RhaohPilSmjw+ 32LEMyFI4AA/GNnlEwLZQPoZfiMhw2GpdbZs0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=SPtNxdHf5ZsmoIQ/X7SXHW14JhGnbeV2kZICLcZQwO1krTzFqajo4T6emsev7ylsoY rWg8oKGvg8eIsyMQlW9Cu8MnUkfTqq+EF3rE9Jm8W8yqwx32OuWJnZfKc5MMYSmEoa/5 OJpykL0bw/pOD4M6e8FQVaCLfnooEXxyHDt/M= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.114.165 with SMTP id e37mr9894296ibq.189.1278712157666; Fri, 09 Jul 2010 14:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.190.213 with HTTP; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 14:49:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 16:49:17 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485e5bfb4ed7d4b048afb5f9d --001485e5bfb4ed7d4b048afb5f9d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 This may be a dumb question, but how hard would it be to build a det-gun machine? Anyone ever messed with one to know how they are built and how they work? Mark On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 11:31 AM, wrote: > George, > Mostly correct, But det-gun application applies ceramic particles into the > aluminum, not steel. The particles are partially imbedded which is why the > process works so well. The application REQUIRES diamond lapping. I have > inquired recently and the price has NOT come down. > Bill > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: George Lendich > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Thu, Jul 8, 2010 9:41 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report > > > > Mark, > We are singing from the same sheet of music. I need the weight reduction > more than you, or should I say no one needs it more than me. I am working on > a single 13B similar to Richard's 12A. Actually Powersports light weight > engine used components out of both the 12A and 13B, the 12A e-shaft mostly, > I'm using my own single crank, 13B rotor housing Renesis rotor (their > cheaper- half price in fact) and looking to Bill Jepson's end housings. I > told Bill I wanted a Titanium rotor and light weight water pump but it will > all take time to just get the basics like P-port inserts and end housings > manufacture up and running. It never happens soon enough does it. > Bill did mention the cost of Det-gun application it was very high, but > can't remember. There is no something that's almost as good. Mistral tried > everything and they all failed. It doesn't matter how good the surface or > how hard the surface is, it's the substrate that fails, taking the surface > with it. Aluminium is a soft substrate. Det-gun application pushes steel > into the surface a good depth eliminating the substrate failure. > I'm wondering how Mazda handles the wear issue in the 16X, however there's > so many 13B's out there will still be a strong demand for parts for likes > of Aviation and racing. > George ( down under) > > George, > > I can't help but wonder why the cost for detonation gun coatings hasn't > come down with time. How expensive is "expensive"? Maybe we could settle > for something almost as good but half the cost? > > I wish Richard, Bill and all the others who are working on the problem > great success. Maybe Mazda will decide to move ahead with their aluminum > 16X engine in the near future. That would pretty much solve the weight > problem for us. > > Mark > > > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 5:58 PM, George Lendich wrote: > >> Mark, >> The secret to Richards design is an expensive cast iron mould - so if >> anything does happen to him, that's the end of it anyway. >> >> Although , like Tracy, I admire his efforts as not many people could >> accomplish what he has done, I wish I had thought of the Powersport type >> carbon steel, oven brazed housings, that Bill Jepson is redesigning for the >> homebuilt use. >> >> The problem with end housings is the need for strong flat wear surfaces >> couple with light weight. Naturally aluminium is light weight but the only >> reasonable wear surface to date has been Det-gun application and that's >> expensive. Richard opted to go the cast iron wear surface ( which is very >> good) and because it is a flat area it has to be thick so as not to flex >> under load, this he coupled with a aluminium half housing. The carbon steel >> housings that Powersport developed is all steel, machined to exacting >> tolerances and brazed together in an over while being clamped in a jig ( I >> assume). >> >> Although aluminium is lighter than steel, the steel housings are only 1 lb >> heavier, I assume because the walls can be thinner. This would still be >> lighter than Richards composite housing. >> >> There are other technologies coming to the fore like sintered laser >> technology where powered metal is laid down in thin layers at a time and >> then melted by the laser. This can be done to exacting specification and >> comes out much like high quality casts - with high density. Only the >> material needed is fused, the other falls from the item as it's removed from >> it's container. The thing I like about this technology is that's there very >> little machining ( which is expensive) and little waste. Different >> materials can be used so as hard points can be built in as the item is >> constructed. I would like to see a Titanium rotor built with hard points ( >> built in steel strips) for seal areas. I think you will see much more of >> this in the future, however I assume it is quite expense at this >> stage. Commercial reality drives these technologies, so we might see these >> things sooner rather than later - I hope. >> George ( down under) >> >> Step 1 should read, "Machine the aluminum side housings from billet >> aluminum *per attached drawings*." >> >> The real issue is that I would hate to see all of Richard's excellent work >> lost if anything were to happen to him. It would turn into another story of >> some mystical rotary engine stored away in a garage somewhere for decades, >> never to run again. The "hairy-chested hero" group needs to do more to >> further the rotary movement for those that will follow. Otherwise, we will >> keep reinventing the same old wheel over and over again. >> >> Mark >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Tracy Crook wrote: >> >>> *how about a "how to" manual? * >>> >>> After following Richard's impressive effort over the years, I can just >>> imagine that manual. >>> >>> Step 1. Machine the aluminum side housings from billet aluminum. >>> Step 2 Cast the iron wear surfaces and machine the o-ring grooves to >>> seal the water jacket area. >>> . >>> . >>> . >>> Step 302 ........... >>> >>> Some projects aren't suited to DIY manuals. If you had the talent & >>> ability to follow the instructions, you probably wouldn't need the manual at >>> all. It sure is way beyond what I could tackle. >>> >>> Tracy >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: >>> >>>> Well then, how about a "how to" manual? >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Richard Sohn wrote: >>>> >>>>> As soon as someone shows up with a couple million bucks. >>>>> >>>>> Richard Sohn >>>>> N2071U >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> *From:* Mark Steitle >>>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 07, 2010 9:22 AM >>>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report >>>>> >>>>> Richard, >>>>> >>>>> That works for me, RES12 it is. So, when do you start selling these >>>>> little jewels? >>>>> >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Richard Sohn wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Whatever, I call it the RES12. If there is a 13B based version in >>>>>> the future it will be a RES13. >>>>>> >>>>>> Richard Sohn >>>>>> N2071U >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> *From:* Mark Steitle >>>>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 06, 2010 1:19 PM >>>>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report >>>>>> >>>>>> Richard, >>>>>> >>>>>> Then, wouldn't you refer to half a 12A as a 6A? >>>>>> >>>>>> Mark >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Richard Sohn wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes Mark, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the airframe is my AVID Heavy Hauler, which I flew for 10 years with >>>>>>> a SOOB. Airframe mods are done, and the engine is on the test stand for >>>>>>> shake down runs. >>>>>>> I would call that engine a 12B because it uses a 12A rotor and rotor >>>>>>> housing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Richard Sohn >>>>>>> N2071U >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > --001485e5bfb4ed7d4b048afb5f9d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This may be a dumb question, but how hard would it be to build a det-gun ma= chine? =A0Anyone ever messed with one to know how they are built and how th= ey work? =A0

Mark

On F= ri, Jul 9, 2010 at 11:31 AM, <wrjjrs@aol.com> wrote:
George,
Mostly correct, But det-gun application applies ceramic particles into= the aluminum, not steel. The particles are partially imbedded which is why= the process works so well. The application REQUIRES diamond lapping. I hav= e inquired recently and the price has NOT come down.
Bill



-----= Original Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, Jul 8, 2010 9:41 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report

=A0
Mark,
We are singing from the same sheet of music.= I need the weight reduction more than you, or should I say no one needs it= more than me. I am working on a single 13B similar to Richard's 12A. A= ctually Powersports light weight engine used components out of both the 12A= and 13B, the 12A e-shaft mostly, I'm using=A0 my own single crank, 13B= rotor housing Renesis rotor (their cheaper- half price in fact) and lookin= g to Bill Jepson's end housings. I told Bill I wanted a Titanium rotor = and light weight water pump but it will all take time to just get the basic= s like P-port inserts and end housings manufacture up and running. It never= happens soon enough does it.
Bill did mention the cost of Det-gun applica= tion it was very high, but can't remember. There is no something that&#= 39;s almost as good. Mistral tried everything and they all failed. It doesn= 't matter how good the surface or how hard the surface is, it's the= substrate that fails, taking the surface with it. Aluminium is a soft subs= trate.=A0 Det-gun application pushes steel into the surface a good depth el= iminating the substrate failure.
I'm wondering how Mazda handles the wear= issue in the 16X, however there's so many 13B's out there will sti= ll be a strong demand for parts for likes of=A0Aviation and racing.
George ( down under)

George,=A0=20

I can't help but wonder why the cost for detonation gun coatings h= asn't come down with time. =A0How expensive is "expensive"? = =A0 Maybe we could settle for something almost as good but half the cost?

I wish Richard, Bill and all the others who are working on the problem= great success. =A0Maybe Mazda will decide to move ahead with their aluminu= m 16X engine in the near future. =A0That would pretty much solve the weight= problem for us. =A0

Mark =A0



On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 5:58 PM, George Lendich <= span dir=3D"ltr"><lendich@aanet.com.au> wrote:
Mark,
The secret to Richards design is an ex= pensive cast iron mould - so if anything does happen to him, that's the= end of it anyway.
=A0
Although , like Tracy, I admire his ef= forts=A0as not many people could = accomplish what he has done, I wish I had thought of the Powersport type ca= rbon steel, oven brazed housings, that Bill Jepson is redesigning for the h= omebuilt use.
=A0
The problem with end housings is the n= eed for strong flat=A0wear surfaces couple with light weight. Naturally alu= minium is light weight but the only reasonable wear surface to date has bee= n Det-gun application and that's expensive. Richard opted to go the cas= t iron wear surface=A0 ( which is very good) and because it is a flat area = it has to be thick so as not to flex under load, this he coupled with a alu= minium=A0 half housing. The carbon steel housings that Powersport developed= is all steel, machined to exacting tolerances and=A0brazed together in an = over while being clamped in a jig ( I assume).=A0=A0
=A0
Although aluminium is lighter than ste= el, the steel housings are only 1 lb heavier,=A0I assume because the walls = can be thinner. This would still be lighter than Richards composite housing= .
=A0
There are other technologies coming to= the fore like sintered laser technology where powered metal is laid down i= n thin layers at a time and then melted by the laser. This can be done to e= xacting specification and comes out much like high quality casts - with hig= h density. Only the material needed is fused, the other falls from the item= as it's removed from it's container. The thing I like about this t= echnology is that's there very little machining ( which is expensive) a= nd little waste. =A0Different materials can be=A0used so as hard points can= be built in as the item is constructed. I would like to see a Titanium rot= or built with hard points ( built in steel=A0 strips) for seal areas. I thi= nk you will see much more of this in the future, however I assume it is qui= te expense at this stage.=A0Commercial reality drives these technologies, s= o we might see these things sooner rather than later - I hope.
George ( down under)
Step 1 should read= , "Machine the aluminum side housings from billet aluminum per atta= ched drawings."

The real issue is that I would hate to see all of Richard's excell= ent work lost if anything were to happen to him. =A0It would turn into anot= her story of some mystical rotary engine stored away in a garage somewhere = for decades, never to run again. =A0The "hairy-chested hero" grou= p needs to do more to further the rotary movement for those that will follo= w. =A0Otherwise, we will keep reinventing the same old wheel over and over = again.

Mark


On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> wrote:
how about a "how to" man= ual?

After following Richard's impressive effort over the years, I can just = imagine that manual.

Step 1.=A0=A0=A0 Machine the aluminum side housings from billet aluminum. Step 2 =A0=A0=A0 Cast the iron wear surfaces and machine the o-ring grooves= to seal the water jacket area.=A0
.
.
.
Step 302=A0 ...........

Some projects aren't suited to DIY manuals.=A0 If you had the talent &a= mp; ability to follow the instructions, you probably wouldn't need the = manual at all.=A0 It sure is way beyond what I could tackle.

Tracy

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Mark Steitle <= msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Well then, how about a &q= uot;how to" manual? =A0=20

Mark

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Richard Sohn <res12@fairpoint.net> wrote:
As soon as someone shows up with a cou= ple million bucks.
=A0
Richard Sohn
N2071U
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 9:22 A= M
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Repor= t

Richard,
=A0
That works for me, RES12 it is.=A0 So, when do you start selling these= little jewels?=A0 =A0
=A0
Mark

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Richard Sohn <res12@fairpoint.net> wrote:
Whatever, I call it the RES12. If ther= e is a 13B based version in the future it will be a RES13.
=A0
Richard Sohn
N2071U
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 1:19 PM<= /div>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Repor= t

Richard,=20

Then, wouldn't you refer to half a 12A as a 6A? =A0

Mark

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Richard Sohn <res12@fairpoint.net> wrote:
Yes Mark,
=A0
the airframe is my AVID Heavy Hauler, = which I flew for 10 years with a SOOB. Airframe mods are done, and the engi= ne is on the test stand for shake down runs.
I would call that engine a 12B because= it uses a 12A rotor and rotor housing.
=A0
Richard Sohn
N2071U
=A0

--001485e5bfb4ed7d4b048afb5f9d--