X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4386197 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 09 Jul 2010 00:42:23 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (mail.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.34]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6344F173538 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 12:41:47 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 81E53BEC024 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2010 12:41:46 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: <6DC7B3193D2048B6AA032060100F56A6@ownerf1fc517b8> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 14:41:50 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01CB1F74.DD8FFE60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 100708-1, 07/08/2010), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01CB1F74.DD8FFE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, We are singing from the same sheet of music. I need the weight = reduction more than you, or should I say no one needs it more than me. I = am working on a single 13B similar to Richard's 12A. Actually = Powersports light weight engine used components out of both the 12A and = 13B, the 12A e-shaft mostly, I'm using my own single crank, 13B rotor = housing Renesis rotor (their cheaper- half price in fact) and looking to = Bill Jepson's end housings. I told Bill I wanted a Titanium rotor and = light weight water pump but it will all take time to just get the basics = like P-port inserts and end housings manufacture up and running. It = never happens soon enough does it. Bill did mention the cost of Det-gun application it was very high, but = can't remember. There is no something that's almost as good. Mistral = tried everything and they all failed. It doesn't matter how good the = surface or how hard the surface is, it's the substrate that fails, = taking the surface with it. Aluminium is a soft substrate. Det-gun = application pushes steel into the surface a good depth eliminating the = substrate failure. I'm wondering how Mazda handles the wear issue in the 16X, however = there's so many 13B's out there will still be a strong demand for parts = for likes of Aviation and racing. George ( down under) George,=20 I can't help but wonder why the cost for detonation gun coatings = hasn't come down with time. How expensive is "expensive"? Maybe we = could settle for something almost as good but half the cost? I wish Richard, Bill and all the others who are working on the problem = great success. Maybe Mazda will decide to move ahead with their = aluminum 16X engine in the near future. That would pretty much solve = the weight problem for us. =20 Mark =20 On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 5:58 PM, George Lendich = wrote: Mark, The secret to Richards design is an expensive cast iron mould - so = if anything does happen to him, that's the end of it anyway.=20 Although , like Tracy, I admire his efforts as not many people could = accomplish what he has done, I wish I had thought of the Powersport type = carbon steel, oven brazed housings, that Bill Jepson is redesigning for = the homebuilt use. The problem with end housings is the need for strong flat wear = surfaces couple with light weight. Naturally aluminium is light weight = but the only reasonable wear surface to date has been Det-gun = application and that's expensive. Richard opted to go the cast iron wear = surface ( which is very good) and because it is a flat area it has to = be thick so as not to flex under load, this he coupled with a aluminium = half housing. The carbon steel housings that Powersport developed is all = steel, machined to exacting tolerances and brazed together in an over = while being clamped in a jig ( I assume). =20 Although aluminium is lighter than steel, the steel housings are = only 1 lb heavier, I assume because the walls can be thinner. This would = still be lighter than Richards composite housing. There are other technologies coming to the fore like sintered laser = technology where powered metal is laid down in thin layers at a time and = then melted by the laser. This can be done to exacting specification and = comes out much like high quality casts - with high density. Only the = material needed is fused, the other falls from the item as it's removed = from it's container. The thing I like about this technology is that's = there very little machining ( which is expensive) and little waste. = Different materials can be used so as hard points can be built in as the = item is constructed. I would like to see a Titanium rotor built with = hard points ( built in steel strips) for seal areas. I think you will = see much more of this in the future, however I assume it is quite = expense at this stage. Commercial reality drives these technologies, so = we might see these things sooner rather than later - I hope. George ( down under) Step 1 should read, "Machine the aluminum side housings from = billet aluminum per attached drawings." The real issue is that I would hate to see all of Richard's = excellent work lost if anything were to happen to him. It would turn = into another story of some mystical rotary engine stored away in a = garage somewhere for decades, never to run again. The "hairy-chested = hero" group needs to do more to further the rotary movement for those = that will follow. Otherwise, we will keep reinventing the same old = wheel over and over again. Mark On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Tracy Crook = wrote: how about a "how to" manual?=20 After following Richard's impressive effort over the years, I = can just imagine that manual. Step 1. Machine the aluminum side housings from billet = aluminum. Step 2 Cast the iron wear surfaces and machine the o-ring = grooves to seal the water jacket area. =20 . . . Step 302 ........... Some projects aren't suited to DIY manuals. If you had the = talent & ability to follow the instructions, you probably wouldn't need = the manual at all. It sure is way beyond what I could tackle. Tracy=20 On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Mark Steitle = wrote: Well then, how about a "how to" manual? =20 Mark On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Richard Sohn = wrote: As soon as someone shows up with a couple million bucks. Richard Sohn N2071U ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 9:22 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report Richard, That works for me, RES12 it is. So, when do you start = selling these little jewels? =20 Mark On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Richard Sohn = wrote: Whatever, I call it the RES12. If there is a 13B based = version in the future it will be a RES13. Richard Sohn N2071U ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 1:19 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report Richard,=20 Then, wouldn't you refer to half a 12A as a 6A? =20 Mark On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Richard Sohn = wrote: Yes Mark, the airframe is my AVID Heavy Hauler, which I flew = for 10 years with a SOOB. Airframe mods are done, and the engine is on = the test stand for shake down runs.=20 I would call that engine a 12B because it uses a 12A = rotor and rotor housing. Richard Sohn N2071U ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01CB1F74.DD8FFE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Mark,
We are singing from the same sheet of = music. I=20 need the weight reduction more than you, or should I say no one needs = it more=20 than me. I am working on a single 13B similar to Richard's 12A. = Actually=20 Powersports light weight engine used components out of both the 12A = and 13B,=20 the 12A e-shaft mostly, I'm using  my own single crank, 13B rotor = housing=20 Renesis rotor (their cheaper- half price in fact) and looking to Bill = Jepson's=20 end housings. I told Bill I wanted a Titanium rotor and light weight = water=20 pump but it will all take time to just get the basics like P-port = inserts and=20 end housings manufacture up and running. It never happens soon enough = does=20 it.
Bill did mention the cost of Det-gun = application=20 it was very high, but can't remember. There is no something that's = almost as=20 good. Mistral tried everything and they all failed. It doesn't matter = how good=20 the surface or how hard the surface is, it's the substrate that fails, = taking=20 the surface with it. Aluminium is a soft substrate.  Det-gun = application=20 pushes steel into the surface a good depth eliminating the substrate=20 failure.
I'm wondering how Mazda handles the = wear issue=20 in the 16X, however there's so many 13B's out there will still be a = strong=20 demand for parts for likes of Aviation and racing.
George ( down under)

George, 

I can't help but wonder why the cost for detonation gun coatings = hasn't=20 come down with time.  How expensive is "expensive"?   Maybe = we could=20 settle for something almost as good but half the cost?

I wish Richard, Bill and all the others who are working on the = problem=20 great success.  Maybe Mazda will decide to move ahead with their = aluminum=20 16X engine in the near future.  That would pretty much solve the = weight=20 problem for us.  

Mark  



On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 5:58 PM, George = Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au> = wrote:
Mark,
The secret to Richards design is an = expensive=20 cast iron mould - so if anything does happen to him, that's the end = of it=20 anyway.
 
Although , like Tracy, I admire his = efforts as not many = people could=20 accomplish what he has done, I wish I had thought of the Powersport = type=20 carbon steel, oven brazed housings, that Bill Jepson is redesigning = for the=20 homebuilt use.
 
The problem with end housings is = the need for=20 strong flat wear surfaces couple with light weight. Naturally = aluminium=20 is light weight but the only reasonable wear surface to date has = been=20 Det-gun application and that's expensive. Richard opted to go the = cast iron=20 wear surface  ( which is very good) and because it is a flat = area it=20 has to be thick so as not to flex under load, this he coupled with a = aluminium  half housing. The carbon steel housings that = Powersport=20 developed is all steel, machined to exacting tolerances = and brazed=20 together in an over while being clamped in a jig ( I=20 assume).  
 
Although aluminium is lighter than = steel, the=20 steel housings are only 1 lb heavier, I assume because the = walls can be=20 thinner. This would still be lighter than Richards composite=20 housing.
 
There are other technologies coming = to the fore=20 like sintered laser technology where powered metal is laid down in = thin=20 layers at a time and then melted by the laser. This can be done to = exacting=20 specification and comes out much like high quality casts - with high = density. Only the material needed is fused, the other falls from the = item as=20 it's removed from it's container. The thing I like about this = technology is=20 that's there very little machining ( which is expensive) and little = waste.=20  Different materials can be used so as hard points can be = built in=20 as the item is constructed. I would like to see a Titanium rotor = built with=20 hard points ( built in steel  strips) for seal areas. I think = you will=20 see much more of this in the future, however I assume it is quite = expense at=20 this stage. Commercial reality drives these technologies, so we = might=20 see these things sooner rather than later - I hope.
George ( down under)
Step=20 1 should read, "Machine the aluminum side housings from billet = aluminum=20 per attached drawings."

The real issue is that I would hate to see all of Richard's = excellent=20 work lost if anything were to happen to him.  It would turn = into=20 another story of some mystical rotary engine stored away in a = garage=20 somewhere for decades, never to run again.  The = "hairy-chested hero"=20 group needs to do more to further the rotary movement for those = that will=20 follow.  Otherwise, we will keep reinventing the same old = wheel over=20 and over again.

Mark


On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Tracy = Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> wrote:
how=20 about a "how to" manual?

After following Richard's=20 impressive effort over the years, I can just imagine that=20 manual.

Step 1.    Machine the aluminum = side=20 housings from billet aluminum.
Step 2     Cast = the=20 iron wear surfaces and machine the o-ring grooves to seal the = water=20 jacket area. 
.
.
.
Step 302 =20 ...........

Some projects aren't suited to DIY = manuals.  If=20 you had the talent & ability to follow the instructions, you = probably wouldn't need the manual at all.  It sure is way = beyond=20 what I could tackle.

Tracy

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Mark = Steitle=20 <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Well=20 then, how about a "how to" manual?  =20

Mark

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:04 PM, = Richard Sohn=20 <res12@fairpoint.net> wrote:
As soon as someone shows up = with a=20 couple million bucks.
 
Richard = Sohn
N2071U
----- Original Message = -----
From:=20 Mark Steitle
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, = July 07,=20 2010 9:22 AM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Flight Report

Richard,
 
That works for me, RES12 it is.  So, when do you = start=20 selling these little jewels?   
 
Mark

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:09 AM, = Richard=20 Sohn <res12@fairpoint.net> = wrote:
Whatever, I call it the = RES12. If=20 there is a 13B based version in the future it will be a=20 RES13.
 
Richard = Sohn
N2071U
----- Original Message = -----=20
From:=20 Mark Steitle
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Sent: Tuesday, = July 06,=20 2010 1:19 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Flight Report

Richard,=20

Then, wouldn't you refer to half a 12A as a 6A?=20  

Mark

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 12:27 = PM,=20 Richard Sohn <res12@fairpoint.net> = wrote:
Yes = Mark,
 
the airframe is my = AVID Heavy=20 Hauler, which I flew for 10 years with a SOOB. = Airframe mods=20 are done, and the engine is on the test stand for = shake down=20 runs.
I would call that = engine a 12B=20 because it uses a 12A rotor and rotor = housing.
 
Richard Sohn
N2071U
 

=



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