X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-iw0-f180.google.com ([209.85.214.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4386049 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 21:50:35 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.180; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by iwn8 with SMTP id 8so1486437iwn.25 for ; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 18:50:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=7Yho7F1MvoetLaKm45vUF9CvwsQ7F+1DYgjlWQ71yvU=; b=ZkC8s+CpZ0XhD3QuU4w2QjoD5H/AEZCEEkH8cZv9aehjl9nStlELjEoUXOwoi9ijPP bfCMbRIoZsAgRbms3eMU1rAsLKHU4qxkPpwPstvaLrm6qcCxT7dZ1XIa/i0dn/WTMEF2 VrkW1TGuF/l5lxaSmsyC3XbG9cDIftVMzT/ao= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=vHH/Amrwxe1gn/LPUiuig/RYaR6Zm2tKxj4WGS6HbbIit5YRuLUE9+9k4g8o2sD2Tb 1VsnP1wHi8sY7CZVT6MWCqxJeDA/8fbKFIiC7To49k/tS5BTXbvrucyWUKpb3zSRDch+ gl1AJO7tauNH8RKcUMyn5BogmgDeM3gqEHU7M= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.39.201 with SMTP id h9mr8841475ibe.118.1278640200484; Thu, 08 Jul 2010 18:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.190.213 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Jul 2010 18:50:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 20:50:00 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555cf9af2441e048aea9ed7 --00032555cf9af2441e048aea9ed7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 George, I can't help but wonder why the cost for detonation gun coatings hasn't come down with time. How expensive is "expensive"? Maybe we could settle for something almost as good but half the cost? I wish Richard, Bill and all the others who are working on the problem great success. Maybe Mazda will decide to move ahead with their aluminum 16X engine in the near future. That would pretty much solve the weight problem for us. Mark On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 5:58 PM, George Lendich wrote: > Mark, > The secret to Richards design is an expensive cast iron mould - so if > anything does happen to him, that's the end of it anyway. > > Although , like Tracy, I admire his efforts as not many people could > accomplish what he has done, I wish I had thought of the Powersport type > carbon steel, oven brazed housings, that Bill Jepson is redesigning for the > homebuilt use. > > The problem with end housings is the need for strong flat wear surfaces > couple with light weight. Naturally aluminium is light weight but the only > reasonable wear surface to date has been Det-gun application and that's > expensive. Richard opted to go the cast iron wear surface ( which is very > good) and because it is a flat area it has to be thick so as not to flex > under load, this he coupled with a aluminium half housing. The carbon steel > housings that Powersport developed is all steel, machined to exacting > tolerances and brazed together in an over while being clamped in a jig ( I > assume). > > Although aluminium is lighter than steel, the steel housings are only 1 lb > heavier, I assume because the walls can be thinner. This would still be > lighter than Richards composite housing. > > There are other technologies coming to the fore like sintered laser > technology where powered metal is laid down in thin layers at a time and > then melted by the laser. This can be done to exacting specification and > comes out much like high quality casts - with high density. Only the > material needed is fused, the other falls from the item as it's removed from > it's container. The thing I like about this technology is that's there very > little machining ( which is expensive) and little waste. Different > materials can be used so as hard points can be built in as the item is > constructed. I would like to see a Titanium rotor built with hard points ( > built in steel strips) for seal areas. I think you will see much more of > this in the future, however I assume it is quite expense at this > stage. Commercial reality drives these technologies, so we might see these > things sooner rather than later - I hope. > George ( down under) > > Step 1 should read, "Machine the aluminum side housings from billet > aluminum *per attached drawings*." > > The real issue is that I would hate to see all of Richard's excellent work > lost if anything were to happen to him. It would turn into another story of > some mystical rotary engine stored away in a garage somewhere for decades, > never to run again. The "hairy-chested hero" group needs to do more to > further the rotary movement for those that will follow. Otherwise, we will > keep reinventing the same old wheel over and over again. > > Mark > > > On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Tracy Crook wrote: > >> *how about a "how to" manual? * >> >> After following Richard's impressive effort over the years, I can just >> imagine that manual. >> >> Step 1. Machine the aluminum side housings from billet aluminum. >> Step 2 Cast the iron wear surfaces and machine the o-ring grooves to >> seal the water jacket area. >> . >> . >> . >> Step 302 ........... >> >> Some projects aren't suited to DIY manuals. If you had the talent & >> ability to follow the instructions, you probably wouldn't need the manual at >> all. It sure is way beyond what I could tackle. >> >> Tracy >> >> On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: >> >>> Well then, how about a "how to" manual? >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Richard Sohn wrote: >>> >>>> As soon as someone shows up with a couple million bucks. >>>> >>>> Richard Sohn >>>> N2071U >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> *From:* Mark Steitle >>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 07, 2010 9:22 AM >>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report >>>> >>>> Richard, >>>> >>>> That works for me, RES12 it is. So, when do you start selling these >>>> little jewels? >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Richard Sohn wrote: >>>> >>>>> Whatever, I call it the RES12. If there is a 13B based version in the >>>>> future it will be a RES13. >>>>> >>>>> Richard Sohn >>>>> N2071U >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> *From:* Mark Steitle >>>>> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 06, 2010 1:19 PM >>>>> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report >>>>> >>>>> Richard, >>>>> >>>>> Then, wouldn't you refer to half a 12A as a 6A? >>>>> >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Richard Sohn wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yes Mark, >>>>>> >>>>>> the airframe is my AVID Heavy Hauler, which I flew for 10 years with a >>>>>> SOOB. Airframe mods are done, and the engine is on the test stand for shake >>>>>> down runs. >>>>>> I would call that engine a 12B because it uses a 12A rotor and rotor >>>>>> housing. >>>>>> >>>>>> Richard Sohn >>>>>> N2071U >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> > --00032555cf9af2441e048aea9ed7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable George,=A0

I can't help but wonder why the cost for = detonation gun coatings hasn't come down with time. =A0How expensive is= "expensive"? =A0 Maybe we could settle for something almost as g= ood but half the cost?

I wish Richard, Bill and all the others who are working= on the problem great success. =A0Maybe Mazda will decide to move ahead wit= h their aluminum 16X engine in the near future. =A0That would pretty much s= olve the weight problem for us. =A0

Mark =A0



On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 5:58 PM, George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au> wrote:
Mark,
The secret to Richards design is an ex= pensive cast=20 iron mould - so if anything does happen to him, that's the end of it an= yway.=20
=A0
Although , like Tracy, I admire his ef= forts=A0as not many people could = accomplish what he=20 has done, I wish I had thought of the Powersport type carbon steel, oven br= azed=20 housings, that Bill Jepson is redesigning for the homebuilt=20 use.
=A0
The problem with end housings is the n= eed for=20 strong flat=A0wear surfaces couple with light weight. Naturally aluminium i= s=20 light weight but the only reasonable wear surface to date has been Det-gun= =20 application and that's expensive. Richard opted to go the cast iron wea= r=20 surface=A0 ( which is very good) and because it is a flat area it has to be= =20 thick so as not to flex under load, this he coupled with a aluminium=A0 hal= f=20 housing. The carbon steel housings that Powersport developed is all steel,= =20 machined to exacting tolerances and=A0brazed together in an over while bein= g=20 clamped in a jig ( I assume).=A0=A0
=A0
Although aluminium is lighter than ste= el, the steel=20 housings are only 1 lb heavier,=A0I assume because the walls can be thinner= .=20 This would still be lighter than Richards composite housing.
=A0
There are other technologies coming to= the fore=20 like sintered laser technology where powered metal is laid down in thin lay= ers=20 at a time and then melted by the laser. This can be done to exacting=20 specification and comes out much like high quality casts - with high densit= y.=20 Only the material needed is fused, the other falls from the item as it'= s removed=20 from it's container. The thing I like about this technology is that'= ;s there very=20 little machining ( which is expensive) and little waste. =A0Different=20 materials can be=A0used so as hard points can be built in as the item is=20 constructed. I would like to see a Titanium rotor built with hard points ( = built=20 in steel=A0 strips) for seal areas. I think you will see much more of this = in=20 the future, however I assume it is quite expense at this stage.=A0Commercia= l=20 reality drives these technologies, so we might see these things sooner rath= er=20 than later - I hope.
George ( down under)
Step=20 1 should read, "Machine the aluminum side housings from billet alumi= num per=20 attached drawings."

The real issue is that I would hate to see all of Richard's exce= llent=20 work lost if anything were to happen to him. =A0It would turn into anothe= r=20 story of some mystical rotary engine stored away in a garage somewhere fo= r=20 decades, never to run again. =A0The "hairy-chested hero" group = needs to do=20 more to further the rotary movement for those that will follow.=20 =A0Otherwise, we will keep reinventing the same old wheel over and over= =20 again.

Mark


On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation.com>=20 wrote:
how=20 about a "how to" manual?

After following Richard&= #39;s impressive=20 effort over the years, I can just imagine that manual.

Step=20 1.=A0=A0=A0 Machine the aluminum side housings from billet=20 aluminum.
Step 2 =A0=A0=A0 Cast the iron wear surfaces and=20 machine the o-ring grooves to seal the water jacket area.=A0=20
.
.
.
Step 302=A0 ...........

Some projects aren= 9;t=20 suited to DIY manuals.=A0 If you had the talent & ability to follow= =20 the instructions, you probably wouldn't need the manual at all.=A0 = It=20 sure is way beyond what I could tackle.

Tracy

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Mark Steitle= <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Well=20 then, how about a "how to" manual? =A0

Mark

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Richard S= ohn <res12@fairpoint.net> wrote:
As soon as someone shows up wi= th a couple=20 million bucks.
=A0
Richard Sohn
N2071U<= /div>
----- Original Message -----
Fro= m: Mark Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2= 010=20 9:22 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fl= ight=20 Report

Richard,
=A0
That works for me, RES12 it is.=A0 So, when do you start=20 selling these little jewels?=A0 =A0
=A0
Mark

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Richar= d Sohn=20 <res12@fairpoint.net> wrote:
Whatever, I call it the RE= S12. If there=20 is a 13B based version in the future it will be a=20 RES13.
=A0
Richard Sohn
N2071U
----- Original Message ----- <= /div>
From:=20 Mark Steitle
Sent: Tuesday, July 06,= 2010=20 1:19 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re= :=20 Flight Report

Richard,=20

Then, wouldn't you refer to half a 12A as a 6A? =A0<= /div>

Mark

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 12:27 PM, R= ichard=20 Sohn <res12@fairpoint.net> wrote:
Yes Mark,
=A0
the airframe is my AVI= D Heavy=20 Hauler, which I flew for 10 years with a SOOB. Airframe mod= s are=20 done, and the engine is on the test stand for shake down ru= ns.=20
I would call that engi= ne a 12B=20 because it uses a 12A rotor and rotor housing.
=A0
Richard Sohn
N2071U
=A0
=





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