X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-vw0-f52.google.com ([209.85.212.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4365820 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 20:12:17 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.212.52; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by vws6 with SMTP id 6so691849vws.25 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:11:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:sender:received :in-reply-to:references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=w2QFpESt5kIFgrA/hlpmeXldPlJzAeZpuxtE858SlNM=; b=VokkYQMpdgeWvIQiysibeFmZNXK7F3JF2Aa0LX+7ag1aU7Hw1/2N8uGryWspYUlkGM ps9HlDbndw48ydubB8Xe1Gukuq6Zz+J5q06cq2Q6nZA71zRGGVEqu+t8y4Kxtb1FVDMp gauM0B3fERft8/4VIDogks0WpX8BXVFBUaoyA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=AUGlZzRzbrJ/hTm31x4nhDFrodL1xysEc0RNXT7JEi1s+SiX2yOR3ZEHwJJFI0Cum9 haOGCU2+cPYbZhGxxNYJWwM3vaLViYDQJ6dHOiLsrJ+sHwCPZJdboQX5Ja2WA0Cbzaqj vTknbKB00qQRBSJHeNCrGy9d4FfobePhvE3XA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.126.228 with SMTP id d36mr2583412vcs.173.1277165502676; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.220.13.14 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:11:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 20:11:42 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7riGeUbwn01d3sa7YGsv8mglqJY Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=005045015a4d1b3fb1048993445b --005045015a4d1b3fb1048993445b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *I hate to ask, but what about the Dynamic Intake effect in the PP with a traditional log-type manifold?* If you think about the meaning and function of the Dynamic effect, you will see that it is mutually exclusive with the traditional log-type manifold. the 'log' is a plenum chamber which inherently damps out the dynamic waves and reflections in a DIE intake system. The timing, length, etc would be different than for the sideport DIE setup that Ed Anderson did so much work on. I won't even pretend to have any ide= a what the proper parameters are for a PP DIE setup. Tracy On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Bryan Winberry wrote: > Yeah, > > I just saw those MP taps for the oil injection on another site. I=92m no > expert, but that seems like an odd place to gather MP data. > > > > I only asked about the slide throttle, I certainly had not decided that i= t > was the answer. > > > > Sounds like you recommend the traditional TB =96 manifold =96 runners set= up for > the PP as well. > > > > I hate to ask, but what about the Dynamic Intake effect in the PP with a > traditional log-type manifold? > > > > Bryan > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Tracy Crook > *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 7:29 PM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines > > > > Bill, > > I have purchased the EC-3. Will this make any difference in the difficul= ty > of tuning? Is it a good choice for a PP setup? > > I=92d imagine I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C. > > Bryan > > Bryan, > Mark (the Mustang II w/ pp 13B) used an EC2 on his engine and eventual= ly > got it running pretty well but it was a MAJOR pain getting it to work wit= h > that slide throttle since getting manifold pressure was hard to do since > there IS NO MANIFOLD when using that slide right at the port. No one see= ms > to consider these 'details' when planning their installation. I'm of the > same opinion as Bill on the slide throttle- Why the hell do it? Mark > eventually got a usable MP signal by taping into the oil injection ports = in > the rotor housing but that's not ideal. > > BTW, several people referd to Mark's PP 13B as a Renesis PP but I thought > it was a 2nd gen 13B. I could be wrong. Pity that the airplane was lost= in > that ground accident, I had not heard about that. > Tracy > > On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 7:13 PM, wrote: > > Bryan, > > The importance of any system that you use will be, DO YOU UNDERSTAND IT? > Have you ever *tuned* an engine using a carb, or FI yourself? Tracy's > system seems like a good one for the price. I have not used Tracy's EMS b= ut > it has been effective for the guys that keep at it. A good fuel flow and > mixture meter are top tools for determining where you are. I believe thos= e > are built into the EC-3. Remember, while it won't be changing while you r= un > the engine, the intake and exhaust are just as "active" parts as ignition > and injection. My advise would be to be sure that you triple check all yo= ur > wiring before you install it. Too many of the guys have run into problems= in > their wiring. Be sure you are dealing with a genuine tuning problem and y= ou > will be miles ahead. > > Bill, > > I have purchased the EC-3. Will this make any difference in the difficul= ty > of tuning? Is it a good choice for a PP setup? > > I=92d imagine I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C. > > Bryan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bryan Winberry > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2010 3:50 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines > > Bill, > > I have purchased the EC-3. Will this make any difference in the difficul= ty > of tuning? Is it a good choice for a PP setup? > > I=92d imagine I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C. > > Bryan > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > *On Behalf Of *wrjjrs@aol.com > *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 6:41 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines > > > > Bryan, > > As a reference the original Powersport 13B P-port is rated at 210 HP > normally aspirated. The fuel flows are very similar to any other engine > producing that level of power. Steve tells me that they were seeing FF ve= ry > comparable to an angle valve IO-360 producing identical power. This engin= e > was dynoed with butterfly valves in the housing. These p-ports were 1-5/8= ' > diameter optimized for 6000 RPM. The engine would rev higher but you were > already at peak power anyway. Larger ports will make more power at higher > RPM. Tuning will become more critical with the larger ports. A personal > anecdote here. I built a high reving motorcycle engine in 1978 with all t= he > "best" parts at the time. The engine was unreal at high revs, but if you > transitioned to anything below 4000 RPM by shutting the throttle off and > quickly opening it again the engine would "catch" or hit an RPM plateau a= nd > would rev no higher. In fact the engine would die if not returned to idle= ! > This horrible malfunction was TUNED OUT later, and the solution was > surprisingly simple, however difficult to find. The key here is that many > people underestimate the job of installing and tuning p-ports. There are = two > aspects, first the initial install being sure there are no leaks . Then > second, and most overlooked is that the system must tolerate the heat cyc= les > of a high power engine without DEVELOPING NEW LEAKS for a long time. > Powersport used an insert with o-rings sealing the port. O-rings or other > elastomers work much better than epoxy on long-term sealing because there > are different expansion rates between the port and the epoxy. On a car yo= u > can usually get away with epoxy for a while. An aircraft is a different > animal. The aircraft engine needs to tolerate 80-100% power for long peri= ods > and then long cold-soaks on the ground. The rotary is mechanically tough > enough but you need to design your subsystems like a race car that will s= ee > a 500 mile long straight-away! When Paul Lamar ran one of the newsletter > guys P-port Renesis at MazdaTrix, They got great numbers, but only after > changing to an intake that MazdaTrix had spent lots of time tuning. P-por= ts > will run great, and even idle well if not too oversized, but don't expect > the tuning to be real easy. Remember you are designing a new intake, > exhaust, and the equivilent of a new cam timing all at once. The rotary i= s > very much like a two-cycle in that respect. The results can be very worth > while if you understand the difficulty involved. > > Bill Jepson > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: George Lendich > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2010 2:36 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines > > Bryan, > > Not all P-ports are equal. > > More power =3D more fuel. > > Talk to Bill Jepson ( on here) about availability of new P-ports. > > George ( down under). > > All this talk of additional power coupled with an easier intake design > has me thinking I should probably go this direction with my Renesis. It= =92s > still on the stand after rebuild. > > I haven=92t constructed the manifold yet anyway. > > > > I assume fuel flow will be higher than normal? > > > > Is slide throttle best option? > > > > Need to search archives I guess. > > > > Good info Lynn, Thanks > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > *On Behalf Of *Lynn Hanover > *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 12:15 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines > > > > In a message dated 6/21/2010 11:03:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > rv-4mike@cox.net writes: > > Thanks for the feedback Lynn. Unusual to see a "poor port design" > actually aid performance. > > > > Mike Wills > > > > > > It is not obvious until you start graphing the open and close events, but > the side port which uses the side of the rotor as a shutter to open and > close the port, offers Mazda great latitude in port timing. In the > periphery ported engine (both ports) it is impossible to arrive at zero > overlap, and have an engine that will produce any power at all. The apex > seal does not close off either port at all, it just valves gasses in one > direction or another. > > > > In addition, the overlap of the periphery ported engine is far more > effective flow wise than overlap in the side ported engine. One apex seal= is > above the intake port when the opposing apex seal is below the exhaust po= rt. > Flow between the two is unobstructed. > > > > So, at low RPM you get fresh mixture leaving through the exhaust port, an= d > combinations of burned and unburned fuel and exhaust gasses flowing partw= ay > back into the intake runners. > > > > This reduces the low RPM output to the point that the engine seems quit > docile, and is easy to drive around in the car, slowly, or possibly taxi = in > an aircraft. This would make off idle tuning data useless as there will = be > fuel burning right on top of the EGT probes, and unburned fuel reaching t= he > F/A sensor. > > > > The engine will act along the lines of a piston engine with a long durati= on > cam. When the engine reaches its happy RPM where all of the mixture is > burning inside the engine, it will step up on the "CAM" and you will see > what a good idea this was. Use slow throttle inputs until you find the "W= OW" > RPM, and be ready with all available rudder. > > > > When we first ran a factory periphery port engine, we found that there we= re > places on the track that would not allow full throttle. This with 11" wid= e > slicks. Thank Heaven for rev limiters. The driver reported the rear end > getting real loose cresting hills and bumps. > > > > Why yes it was.......... > > > > Lynn E. Hanover > > > --005045015a4d1b3fb1048993445b Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I hate to ask, but what about the= =20 Dynamic Intake effect in the PP with a traditional log-type manifold?

If= you think about the meaning and function of the Dynamic effect, you will s= ee that it is mutually exclusive with the traditional log-type manifold.=A0= =A0 the 'log' is a plenum chamber which inherently damps out the dy= namic waves and reflections in a DIE intake system.

The timing, length, etc would be different than for the sideport DIE se= tup that Ed Anderson did so much work on.=A0 I won't even pretend to ha= ve any idea what the proper parameters are for a PP DIE setup.

Tracy=

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 7:44 P= M, Bryan Winberry <bryanwinberry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Yeah,

I just saw tho= se MP taps for the oil injection on another site. =A0I=92m no expert, but that seems like an odd place to gather MP data.

=A0

I only asked a= bout the slide throttle, I certainly had not decided that it was the answer.

=A0

Sounds like yo= u recommend the traditional TB =96 manifold =96 runners setup for the PP as well.

=A0

I hate to ask,= but what about the Dynamic Intake effect in the PP with a traditional log-type manifold?=

=A0

Bryan

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Sent: Monday, June 21, 201= 0 7:29 PM


To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 1= 3B rotary engines

=A0

Bill,

I have purchas= ed the EC-3.=A0 Will this make any difference in the difficulty of tuning?=A0 Is it a good choice for a PP setup?

I=92d imagine = I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C.=

Bryan= =A0

Bryan,<= br> =A0=A0 Mark (the Mustang II w/ pp 13B) used an EC2 on his engine and eventually got it running pretty well but it was a MAJOR pain getting it to work with that slide throttle since getting manifold pressure was hard to d= o since there IS NO MANIFOLD when using that slide right at the port.=A0 No one seems to consider these 'details' when planning their installat= ion.=A0 I'm of the same opinion as Bill on the slide throttle-=A0 Why the hell = do it?=A0 Mark eventually got a usable MP signal by taping into the oil injection ports in the rotor housing but that's not ideal.=A0

BTW, several people referd to Mark's PP 13B as a Renesis PP but I thoug= ht it was a 2nd gen 13B.=A0 I could be wrong.=A0 Pity that the airplane was lost in that ground accident, I had not heard about that.
Tracy

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 7:13 PM, <wrjjrs@aol.com> wrote:

Bryan= ,

The importan= ce of any system that you use will be, DO YOU UNDERSTAND IT? Have you ever tuned an engine using a carb, or FI yourself? Tracy's system seems like a good one for the price. I have not used Tracy's EMS but it has been effective for the guys that keep at it. A good fuel flow and mixture meter are top tools for determining where you are. I believe those are built into the EC-3. Remembe= r, while it won't be changing while you run the engine, the intake and exh= aust are just as "active" parts as ignition and injection. My advise would= be to be sure that you triple check all your wiring before you install it. Too many of the guys have run into problems in their wiring. Be sure you are dealing with a genuine tuning problem and you will be miles ahead.

Bill,

I have purchas= ed the EC-3.=A0 Will this make any difference in the difficulty of tuning?=A0 Is it a good choice for a PP setup?

I=92d imagine = I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C.=

Bryan =A0

=A0

=A0

-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Winberry <bryanwinberry@bellsouth.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2010 3:50 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines

Bill,

I have purchas= ed the EC-3.=A0 Will this make any difference in the difficulty of tuning?=A0 Is it a good choice for= a PP setup?

I=92d imagine = I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C.=

Bryan =A0

=A0

= From:mailto:f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of wrjjrs@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 21, 201= 0 6:41 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 1= 3B rotary engines=

=A0

Bryan= ,

As a referen= ce the original Powersport 13B P-port is rated at 210 HP normally aspirated. The fuel flows are very similar to any other engine producing that level of power. Steve tells me t= hat they were seeing FF very comparable to an angle valve IO-360 producing identical power. This engine was dynoed with butterfly valves in the housing.=A0These p-ports were 1-5/8' diameter optimized for 6000 RPM. T= he engine would rev higher but you were already at peak power anyway. Larger p= orts will make more power at higher RPM. Tuning will become more=A0critical with the larger ports. A personal anecdote here. I built a high reving motorcycl= e engine in 1978 with all the "best" parts at the time. The engine = was unreal at high revs, but if you transitioned to anything below 4000 RPM by shutting the throttle off and quickly opening it again the engine would=A0"catch" or hit an RPM plateau=A0and would rev no higher. In fact the engine would die if not returned to idle! This horrible malfunction was TUNED OUT later, and the solution was surprisingly simple, however difficult to find.=A0The key here is that many people underestimate the job of installing and tuning p-ports. There are two aspects, first the initial install being sure there are no leaks . Then second, and most overlooked is that the system must tolerate the heat cycles of a high power engine without DEVELOPING NEW LEAKS for a long time. Powersport used an ins= ert with o-rings sealing the port. O-rings or other elastomers work much better than epoxy on long-term sealing because there are different expansion rates between the port and the epoxy. On a car you can usually get away with=A0epoxy for a while. An aircraft is a different animal.=A0The aircraft engine needs to tolerate 80-100% power=A0for long periods and then long cold-soaks on the ground. The rotary is mechanically tough enough but = you need to design your subsystems like a race car that will see a 500 mile=A0long straight-away! =A0When Paul Lamar ran one of the newsletter guys P-port Renesis at MazdaTrix, They got great numbers, but only after changing to an intake that MazdaTrix had spent lots of time tuning. P-ports will run great, and even idle well if not too oversized, but don't expe= ct the tuning to be real easy. Remember you are designing a new intake, exhaust, a= nd the equivilent of a new cam timing all at once. The rotary is very much lik= e a two-cycle in that respect. The results can be very worth while if you understand the difficulty involved.

Bill Jepson<= /span>

=A0

-----Origina= l Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2010 2:36 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines

=A0Bryan,

Not all P-po= rts are equal.

More power = =3D more fuel.

Talk to Bill= Jepson ( on here) about availability of new P-ports.

George ( dow= n under).

All this talk = of additional power coupled with an easier intake design has me thinking I should probably go this direction with my Renesis. =A0It=92s still on the stand after rebuild.

I haven=92t co= nstructed the manifold yet anyway.

=A0

I assume fuel = flow will be higher than normal?=

=A0

Is slide throt= tle best option?

=A0

Need to search= archives I guess.<= /span>

=A0

Good info Lynn= , Thanks

=A0

Bryan

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0

= From:mailto:f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover<= br> Sent: Monday, June 21, 201= 0 12:15 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 1= 3B rotary engines=

=A0

In a message dated 6/= 21/2010 11:03:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, rv-4mike@cox.net writes:=

Thanks f= or the feedback Lynn. Unusual to see a "poor port design" actually aid performance.

=A0

Mike Wil= ls

=A0=

=A0

It is not obvious unt= il you start graphing the open and close events, but the side port which uses the side of the rot= or as a shutter to open and close the port, offers Mazda great latitude in por= t timing.=A0 In the periphery ported engine (both ports) it is impossible to arrive at zero overlap, and have an engine that will produce any power at a= ll. The apex seal does not close off either port at all, it just valves gasses = in one direction or another.

=A0

In addition, the over= lap of the periphery ported engine is far more effective flow wise than overlap in the side port= ed engine. One apex seal is above the intake port when the opposing apex seal = is below the exhaust port. Flow between the two is unobstructed.=

=A0

So, at low RPM you ge= t fresh mixture leaving through the exhaust port, and combinations of burned and unburned f= uel and exhaust gasses flowing partway back into the intake runners.

=A0

This reduces the low = RPM output to the point that the engine seems quit docile, and is easy to drive around in the car, slowly, or possibly taxi in an aircraft.=A0 This would make off idle tuning data useless as there will be fuel burning right on top of the EGT probes, and unburned fuel reaching the F/A sensor.=A0

=A0

The engine will act= =A0along the lines of a piston engine with a long duration cam. When the engine reaches its ha= ppy RPM where all of the mixture is burning inside the engine, it will step up = on the "CAM" and you will see what a good idea this was. Use slow throttle inputs until you find the "WOW&q= uot; RPM, and be ready with all available rudder.

=A0

When we first ran a f= actory periphery port engine, we found that there were places on the track that would not allow f= ull throttle. This with 11" wide slicks. Thank Heaven for rev limiters. Th= e driver reported the rear end getting real loose cresting hills and bumps.

=A0

Why yes it was.......= ...

=A0

Lynn E. Hanover=A0

=A0


--005045015a4d1b3fb1048993445b--