X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-vw0-f52.google.com ([209.85.212.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4365781 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:30:03 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.212.52; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by vws6 with SMTP id 6so652526vws.25 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 16:29:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:sender:received :in-reply-to:references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=LiPMMSyVrQBnCTUYTkhdG1YhGQN34CaX57NOuJ4TD50=; b=Azbxxj2PldPr5wUlG02dx1MCw9wTKeBHfhZF092SgQl1k6LXWcqZU0WGKcuGXEIn5G DUaLo8wRoisWaZhGL2BRo/ftgz2r3RJ5x8+GXgOidarm8zbTpmAuEkkIHO5HKCX5pqs3 0i3ZaLMuXCCz2RW8ln3Or9vSQwh+xWq0T7i5o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=WaVU2GTPfJtfEa2y4tH6F3rS/ifcgusO4GY+EtJTT96j0LZbrFcNpekTHEj1wnl/7r y98Byx4+pVvEItlVx0JtOETIrSTGgpEJKvWpnVLtqztPz1jeCuHWfov9Q4Vje46HSMEq ScigpbiLRaqqzN7A8w9LT+YmtlbEyW/JMUINA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.89.212 with SMTP id f20mr2541395vcm.207.1277162967624; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 16:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.220.13.14 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 16:29:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:29:27 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: M3b2LlFsFGTqW2DIyLW772MPCuw Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636310789016ac5048992ad94 --001636310789016ac5048992ad94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, I have purchased the EC-3. Will this make any difference in the difficulty of tuning? Is it a good choice for a PP setup? I=92d imagine I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C. Bryan Bryan, Mark (the Mustang II w/ pp 13B) used an EC2 on his engine and eventually got it running pretty well but it was a MAJOR pain getting it to work with that slide throttle since getting manifold pressure was hard to do since there IS NO MANIFOLD when using that slide right at the port. No one seems to consider these 'details' when planning their installation. I'm of the same opinion as Bill on the slide throttle- Why the hell do it? Mark eventually got a usable MP signal by taping into the oil injection ports in the rotor housing but that's not ideal. BTW, several people referd to Mark's PP 13B as a Renesis PP but I thought i= t was a 2nd gen 13B. I could be wrong. Pity that the airplane was lost in that ground accident, I had not heard about that. Tracy On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 7:13 PM, wrote: > Bryan, > The importance of any system that you use will be, DO YOU UNDERSTAND IT? > Have you ever *tuned* an engine using a carb, or FI yourself? Tracy's > system seems like a good one for the price. I have not used Tracy's EMS b= ut > it has been effective for the guys that keep at it. A good fuel flow and > mixture meter are top tools for determining where you are. I believe thos= e > are built into the EC-3. Remember, while it won't be changing while you r= un > the engine, the intake and exhaust are just as "active" parts as ignition > and injection. My advise would be to be sure that you triple check all yo= ur > wiring before you install it. Too many of the guys have run into problems= in > their wiring. Be sure you are dealing with a genuine tuning problem and y= ou > will be miles ahead. > > Bill, > I have purchased the EC-3. Will this make any difference in the difficul= ty > of tuning? Is it a good choice for a PP setup? > I=92d imagine I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C. > Bryan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bryan Winberry > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2010 3:50 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines > > Bill, > I have purchased the EC-3. Will this make any difference in the difficul= ty > of tuning? Is it a good choice for a PP setup? > I=92d imagine I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C. > Bryan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > *On Behalf Of *wrjjrs@aol.com > *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 6:41 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines > > Bryan, > As a reference the original Powersport 13B P-port is rated at 210 HP > normally aspirated. The fuel flows are very similar to any other engine > producing that level of power. Steve tells me that they were seeing FF ve= ry > comparable to an angle valve IO-360 producing identical power. This engin= e > was dynoed with butterfly valves in the housing. These p-ports were 1-5/8= ' > diameter optimized for 6000 RPM. The engine would rev higher but you were > already at peak power anyway. Larger ports will make more power at higher > RPM. Tuning will become more critical with the larger ports. A personal > anecdote here. I built a high reving motorcycle engine in 1978 with all t= he > "best" parts at the time. The engine was unreal at high revs, but if you > transitioned to anything below 4000 RPM by shutting the throttle off and > quickly opening it again the engine would "catch" or hit an RPM plateau a= nd > would rev no higher. In fact the engine would die if not returned to idle= ! > This horrible malfunction was TUNED OUT later, and the solution was > surprisingly simple, however difficult to find. The key here is that many > people underestimate the job of installing and tuning p-ports. There are = two > aspects, first the initial install being sure there are no leaks . Then > second, and most overlooked is that the system must tolerate the heat cyc= les > of a high power engine without DEVELOPING NEW LEAKS for a long time. > Powersport used an insert with o-rings sealing the port. O-rings or other > elastomers work much better than epoxy on long-term sealing because there > are different expansion rates between the port and the epoxy. On a car yo= u > can usually get away with epoxy for a while. An aircraft is a different > animal. The aircraft engine needs to tolerate 80-100% power for long peri= ods > and then long cold-soaks on the ground. The rotary is mechanically tough > enough but you need to design your subsystems like a race car that will s= ee > a 500 mile long straight-away! When Paul Lamar ran one of the newsletter > guys P-port Renesis at MazdaTrix, They got great numbers, but only after > changing to an intake that MazdaTrix had spent lots of time tuning. P-por= ts > will run great, and even idle well if not too oversized, but don't expect > the tuning to be real easy. Remember you are designing a new intake, > exhaust, and the equivilent of a new cam timing all at once. The rotary i= s > very much like a two-cycle in that respect. The results can be very worth > while if you understand the difficulty involved. > Bill Jepson > > -----Original Message----- > From: George Lendich > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2010 2:36 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines > Bryan, > Not all P-ports are equal. > More power =3D more fuel. > Talk to Bill Jepson ( on here) about availability of new P-ports. > George ( down under). > > All this talk of additional power coupled with an easier intake design > has me thinking I should probably go this direction with my Renesis. It= =92s > still on the stand after rebuild. > I haven=92t constructed the manifold yet anyway. > > I assume fuel flow will be higher than normal? > > Is slide throttle best option? > > Need to search archives I guess. > > Good info Lynn, Thanks > > Bryan > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [*mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net*<= flyrotary@lancaironline.net?>] > *On Behalf Of *Lynn Hanover > *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 12:15 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines > > In a message dated 6/21/2010 11:03:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, * > rv-4mike@cox.net* writes: > > Thanks for the feedback Lynn. Unusual to see a "poor port design" > actually aid performance. > > Mike Wills > > > > It is not obvious until you start graphing the open and close events, > but the side port which uses the side of the rotor as a shutter to open a= nd > close the port, offers Mazda great latitude in port timing. In the > periphery ported engine (both ports) it is impossible to arrive at zero > overlap, and have an engine that will produce any power at all. The apex > seal does not close off either port at all, it just valves gasses in one > direction or another. > > In addition, the overlap of the periphery ported engine is far more > effective flow wise than overlap in the side ported engine. One apex seal= is > above the intake port when the opposing apex seal is below the exhaust po= rt. > Flow between the two is unobstructed. > > So, at low RPM you get fresh mixture leaving through the exhaust port, > and combinations of burned and unburned fuel and exhaust gasses flowing > partway back into the intake runners. > > This reduces the low RPM output to the point that the engine seems quit > docile, and is easy to drive around in the car, slowly, or possibly taxi = in > an aircraft. This would make off idle tuning data useless as there will = be > fuel burning right on top of the EGT probes, and unburned fuel reaching t= he > F/A sensor. > > The engine will act along the lines of a piston engine with a long > duration cam. When the engine reaches its happy RPM where all of the mixt= ure > is burning inside the engine, it will step up on the "CAM" and you will s= ee > what a good idea this was. Use slow throttle inputs until you find the "W= OW" > RPM, and be ready with all available rudder. > > When we first ran a factory periphery port engine, we found that there > were places on the track that would not allow full throttle. This with 11= " > wide slicks. Thank Heaven for rev limiters. The driver reported the rear = end > getting real loose cresting hills and bumps. > > Why yes it was.......... > > Lynn E. Hanover > > --001636310789016ac5048992ad94 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,=
I have=20 purchased the EC-3.=A0 Will this make any difference in the difficulty of= =20 tuning?=A0 Is it a good choice for a PP setup?
I=92d imagin= e I=20 should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C.
Bryan= =A0


Bryan,
=A0=A0 Mark (the Mustang II w/ pp 13B) used an EC2 on his = engine and eventually got it running pretty well but it was a MAJOR pain ge= tting it to work with that slide throttle since getting manifold pressure w= as hard to do since there IS NO MANIFOLD when using that slide right at the= port.=A0 No one seems to consider these 'details' when planning th= eir installation.=A0 I'm of the same opinion as Bill on the slide throt= tle-=A0 Why the hell do it?=A0 Mark eventually got a usable MP signal by ta= ping into the oil injection ports in the rotor housing but that's not i= deal.=A0

BTW, several people referd to Mark's PP 13B as a Renesis PP but I t= hought it was a 2nd gen 13B.=A0 I could be wrong.=A0 Pity that the airplane= was lost in that ground accident, I had not heard about that.
Tracy

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 7:13 PM, <wrjjrs@aol.com> wrote:
Bryan,
The importance of any system that you use will be, DO YOU UNDERSTAND I= T? Have you ever tuned an engine using a carb, or FI yourself? Tracy= 's system seems like a good one for the price. I have not used Tracy= 9;s EMS but it has been effective for the guys that keep at it. A good fuel= flow and mixture meter are top tools for determining where you are. I beli= eve those are built into the EC-3. Remember, while it won't be changing= while you run the engine, the intake and exhaust are just as "active&= quot; parts as ignition and injection. My advise would be to be sure that y= ou triple check all your wiring before you install it. Too many of the guys= have run into problems in their wiring. Be sure you are dealing with a gen= uine tuning problem and you will be miles ahead.
Bill,=
I have purch= ased the EC-3.=A0 Will this make any difference in the difficulty of tuning= ?=A0 Is it a good choice for a PP setup?
I=92d imagin= e I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C.
Bryan= =A0




-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Winberry <bryanwinberry@bellsouth.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2010 3:50 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines

Bill,=
I have purch= ased the EC-3.=A0 Will this make any difference in the difficulty of tuning= ?=A0 Is it a good choice for a PP setup?
I=92d imagin= e I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C.
Bryan= =A0
=A0
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of wrjjrs@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 21, 201= 0 6:41 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 1= 3B rotary engines
=A0
Bryan,
As a refer= ence the original Powersport 13B P-port is rated at 210 HP normally aspirat= ed. The fuel flows are very similar to any other engine producing that leve= l of power. Steve tells me that they were seeing FF very comparable to an a= ngle valve IO-360 producing identical power. This engine was dynoed with bu= tterfly valves in the housing.=A0These p-ports were 1-5/8' diameter opt= imized for 6000 RPM. The engine would rev higher but you were already at pe= ak power anyway. Larger ports will make more power at higher RPM. Tuning wi= ll become more=A0critical with the larger ports. A personal anecdote here. = I built a high reving motorcycle engine in 1978 with all the "best&quo= t; parts at the time. The engine was unreal at high revs, but if you transi= tioned to anything below 4000 RPM by shutting the throttle off and quickly = opening it again the engine would=A0"catch" or hit an RPM plateau= =A0and would rev no higher. In fact the engine would die if not returned to= idle! This horrible malfunction was TUNED OUT later, and the solution was = surprisingly simple, however difficult to find.=A0The key here is that many= people underestimate the job of installing and tuning p-ports. There are t= wo aspects, first the initial install being sure there are no leaks . Then = second, and most overlooked is that the system must tolerate the heat cycle= s of a high power engine without DEVELOPING NEW LEAKS for a long time. Powe= rsport used an insert with o-rings sealing the port. O-rings or other elast= omers work much better than epoxy on long-term sealing because there are di= fferent expansion rates between the port and the epoxy. On a car you can us= ually get away with=A0epoxy for a while. An aircraft is a different animal.= =A0The aircraft engine needs to tolerate 80-100% power=A0for long periods a= nd then long cold-soaks on the ground. The rotary is mechanically tough eno= ugh but you need to design your subsystems like a race car that will see a = 500 mile=A0long straight-away! =A0When Paul Lamar ran one of the newsletter= guys P-port Renesis at MazdaTrix, They got great numbers, but only after c= hanging to an intake that MazdaTrix had spent lots of time tuning. P-ports = will run great, and even idle well if not too oversized, but don't expe= ct the tuning to be real easy. Remember you are designing a new intake, exh= aust, and the equivilent of a new cam timing all at once. The rotary is ver= y much like a two-cycle in that respect. The results can be very worth whil= e if you understand the difficulty involved.
Bill Jepson
=A0
-----Original Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2010 2:36 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines
=A0Bryan,<= /span>
Not all P-= ports are equal.
More power= =3D more fuel.
Talk to Bi= ll Jepson ( on here) about availability of new P-ports.
George ( d= own under).
All this tal= k of additional power coupled with an easier intake design has me thinking = I should probably go this direction with my Renesis. =A0It=92s still on the= stand after rebuild.=
I haven=92t = constructed the manifold yet anyway.
=A0
I assume fue= l flow will be higher than normal?
=A0
Is slide thr= ottle best option?<= /span>
=A0
Need to sear= ch archives I guess.<= /span>
=A0
Good info Ly= nn, Thanks
=A0
Bryan=
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover
Sent: Monday, June 21, 201= 0 12:15 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 1= 3B rotary engines
=A0
In a message dated 6= /21/2010 11:03:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, rv-4mike@cox.net writes:
= Thanks= for the feedback Lynn. Unusual to see a "poor port design" actua= lly aid performance.<= /span>
=A0=
= Mike W= ills
<= span style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; color: black; font-size: 10pt;">=A0
=A0
It is not obvious un= til you start graphing the open and close events, but the side port which u= ses the side of the rotor as a shutter to open and close the port, offers M= azda great latitude in port timing.=A0 In the periphery ported engine (both= ports) it is impossible to arrive at zero overlap, and have an engine that= will produce any power at all. The apex seal does not close off either por= t at all, it just valves gasses in one direction or another. =
=A0
In addition, the ove= rlap of the periphery ported engine is far more effective flow wise than ov= erlap in the side ported engine. One apex seal is above the intake port whe= n the opposing apex seal is below the exhaust port. Flow between the two is= unobstructed.=
=A0
So, at low RPM you g= et fresh mixture leaving through the exhaust port, and combinations of burn= ed and unburned fuel and exhaust gasses flowing partway back into the intak= e runners.
=A0
This reduces the low= RPM output to the point that the engine seems quit docile, and is easy to = drive around in the car, slowly, or possibly taxi in an aircraft.=A0 This w= ould make off idle tuning data useless as there will be fuel burning right = on top of the EGT probes, and unburned fuel reaching the F/A sensor.=A0
=A0
The engine will act= =A0along the lines of a piston engine with a long duration cam. When the en= gine reaches its happy RPM where all of the mixture is burning inside the e= ngine, it will step up on the "CAM" and you will see what a good = idea this was. Use slow throttle inputs until you find the "WOW" = RPM, and be ready with all available rudder.
=A0
When we first ran a = factory periphery port engine, we found that there were places on the track= that would not allow full throttle. This with 11" wide slicks. Thank = Heaven for rev limiters. The driver reported the rear end getting real loos= e cresting hills and bumps.
=A0
Why yes it was......= ....
=A0
Lynn E. Hanover=A0

--001636310789016ac5048992ad94--