X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-da06.mx.aol.com ([205.188.169.203] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4365770 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:14:36 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.169.203; envelope-from=WRJJRS@aol.com Received: from imo-ma02.mx.aol.com (imo-ma02.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.137]) by imr-da06.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o5LNDjHr029028 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:13:45 -0400 Received: from WRJJRS@aol.com by imo-ma02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.de2.5c7dd25 (37033) for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-mb01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-mb01.mx.aol.com [64.12.207.148]) by cia-db02.mx.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILCIADB023-5c5b4c1ff22210; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:13:43 -0400 Received: from webmail-m058 (webmail-m058.sim.aol.com [64.12.158.158]) by smtprly-mb01.mx.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMB011-5c5b4c1ff22210; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:13:38 -0400 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:13:38 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 65.113.35.181 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: wrjjrs@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CCDFAE83C33FBB_1D24_730E_webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 31888-STANDARD Received: from 65.113.35.181 by webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com (64.12.158.158) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:13:38 -0400 Message-Id: <8CCDFAE83B9BA37-1D24-357B@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: WRJJRS@aol.com ----------MB_8CCDFAE83C33FBB_1D24_730E_webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Bryan, The importance of any system that you use will be, DO YOU UNDERSTAND IT?= Have you ever tuned an engine using a carb, or FI yourself? Tracy's syste= m seems like a good one for the price. I have not used Tracy's EMS but it= has been effective for the guys that keep at it. A good fuel flow and mix= ture meter are top tools for determining where you are. I believe those ar= e built into the EC-3. Remember, while it won't be changing while you run= the engine, the intake and exhaust are just as "active" parts as ignition= and injection. My advise would be to be sure that you triple check all yo= ur wiring before you install it. Too many of the guys have run into proble= ms in their wiring. Be sure you are dealing with a genuine tuning problem= and you will be miles ahead. Bill, I have purchased the EC-3. Will this make any difference in the difficult= y of tuning? Is it a good choice for a PP setup? I=E2=80=99d imagine I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C. Bryan =20 -----Original Message----- From: Bryan Winberry To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2010 3:50 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines Bill, I have purchased the EC-3. Will this make any difference in the difficult= y of tuning? Is it a good choice for a PP setup? I=E2=80=99d imagine I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C. Bryan =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of wrjjrs@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 6:41 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines =20 Bryan, As a reference the original Powersport 13B P-port is rated at 210 HP norma= lly aspirated. The fuel flows are very similar to any other engine produci= ng that level of power. Steve tells me that they were seeing FF very compa= rable to an angle valve IO-360 producing identical power. This engine was= dynoed with butterfly valves in the housing. These p-ports were 1-5/8' di= ameter optimized for 6000 RPM. The engine would rev higher but you were al= ready at peak power anyway. Larger ports will make more power at higher RP= M. Tuning will become more critical with the larger ports. A personal anec= dote here. I built a high reving motorcycle engine in 1978 with all the "b= est" parts at the time. The engine was unreal at high revs, but if you tra= nsitioned to anything below 4000 RPM by shutting the throttle off and quic= kly opening it again the engine would "catch" or hit an RPM plateau and wo= uld rev no higher. In fact the engine would die if not returned to idle!= This horrible malfunction was TUNED OUT later, and the solution was surpr= isingly simple, however difficult to find. The key here is that many peopl= e underestimate the job of installing and tuning p-ports. There are two as= pects, first the initial install being sure there are no leaks . Then seco= nd, and most overlooked is that the system must tolerate the heat cycles= of a high power engine without DEVELOPING NEW LEAKS for a long time. Powe= rsport used an insert with o-rings sealing the port. O-rings or other elas= tomers work much better than epoxy on long-term sealing because there are= different expansion rates between the port and the epoxy. On a car you ca= n usually get away with epoxy for a while. An aircraft is a different anim= al. The aircraft engine needs to tolerate 80-100% power for long periods= and then long cold-soaks on the ground. The rotary is mechanically tough= enough but you need to design your subsystems like a race car that will= see a 500 mile long straight-away! When Paul Lamar ran one of the newsle= tter guys P-port Renesis at MazdaTrix, They got great numbers, but only af= ter changing to an intake that MazdaTrix had spent lots of time tuning. P-= ports will run great, and even idle well if not too oversized, but don't= expect the tuning to be real easy. Remember you are designing a new intak= e, exhaust, and the equivilent of a new cam timing all at once. The rotary= is very much like a two-cycle in that respect. The results can be very wo= rth while if you understand the difficulty involved. Bill Jepson =20 -----Original Message----- From: George Lendich To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2010 2:36 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines Bryan, Not all P-ports are equal. More power =3D more fuel. Talk to Bill Jepson ( on here) about availability of new P-ports. George ( down under). All this talk of additional power coupled with an easier intake design has= me thinking I should probably go this direction with my Renesis. It=E2= =80=99s still on the stand after rebuild. I haven=E2=80=99t constructed the manifold yet anyway. =20 I assume fuel flow will be higher than normal? =20 Is slide throttle best option? =20 Need to search archives I guess. =20 Good info Lynn, Thanks =20 Bryan =20 =20 =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Be= half Of Lynn Hanover Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 12:15 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines =20 In a message dated 6/21/2010 11:03:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, rv-4mike= @cox.net writes: Thanks for the feedback Lynn. Unusual to see a "poor port design" actually= aid performance. =20 Mike Wills =20 =20 It is not obvious until you start graphing the open and close events, but= the side port which uses the side of the rotor as a shutter to open and= close the port, offers Mazda great latitude in port timing. In the perip= hery ported engine (both ports) it is impossible to arrive at zero overlap= , and have an engine that will produce any power at all. The apex seal doe= s not close off either port at all, it just valves gasses in one direction= or another.=20 =20 In addition, the overlap of the periphery ported engine is far more effect= ive flow wise than overlap in the side ported engine. One apex seal is abo= ve the intake port when the opposing apex seal is below the exhaust port.= Flow between the two is unobstructed. =20 So, at low RPM you get fresh mixture leaving through the exhaust port, and= combinations of burned and unburned fuel and exhaust gasses flowing partw= ay back into the intake runners. =20 This reduces the low RPM output to the point that the engine seems quit do= cile, and is easy to drive around in the car, slowly, or possibly taxi in= an aircraft. This would make off idle tuning data useless as there will= be fuel burning right on top of the EGT probes, and unburned fuel reachin= g the F/A sensor. =20 =20 The engine will act along the lines of a piston engine with a long duratio= n cam. When the engine reaches its happy RPM where all of the mixture is= burning inside the engine, it will step up on the "CAM" and you will see= what a good idea this was. Use slow throttle inputs until you find the "W= OW" RPM, and be ready with all available rudder.=20 =20 When we first ran a factory periphery port engine, we found that there wer= e places on the track that would not allow full throttle. This with 11" wi= de slicks. Thank Heaven for rev limiters. The driver reported the rear end= getting real loose cresting hills and bumps. =20 Why yes it was.......... =20 Lynn E. Hanover=20 ----------MB_8CCDFAE83C33FBB_1D24_730E_webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Bryan,
The importance of any system that you use will be, DO YOU UNDERSTAND= IT? Have you ever tuned an engine using a carb, or FI yourself? Tr= acy's system seems like a good one for the price. I have not used Tracy's= EMS but it has been effective for the guys that keep at it. A good fuel= flow and mixture meter are top tools for determining where you are. I bel= ieve those are built into the EC-3. Remember, while it won't be changing= while you run the engine, the intake and exhaust are just as "active" par= ts as ignition and injection. My advise would be to be sure that you tripl= e check all your wiring before you install it. Too many of the guys have= run into problems in their wiring. Be sure you are dealing with a genuine= tuning problem and you will be miles ahead.
Bill,=
I have purchased th= e EC-3.  Will this make any difference in the difficulty of tuning?&n= bsp; Is it a good choice for a PP setup?
I=E2=80=99d imagine= I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C.
Bryan=  




-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Winberry <bryanwinberry@bellsouth.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2010 3:50 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines

Bill,=
I have purchased th= e EC-3.  Will this make any difference in the difficulty of tuning?&n= bsp; Is it a good choice for a PP setup?
I=E2=80=99d imagine= I should aim for around 7500 rpm for a RD-1C.
Bryan=  
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of w= rjjrs@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 21, 201= 0 6:41 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= 13B rotary engines
 
Bryan,
As a reference th= e original Powersport 13B P-port is rated at 210 HP normally aspirated. Th= e fuel flows are very similar to any other engine producing that level of= power. Steve tells me that they were seeing FF very comparable to an angl= e valve IO-360 producing identical power. This engine was dynoed with butt= erfly valves in the housing. These p-ports were 1-5/8' diameter optim= ized for 6000 RPM. The engine would rev higher but you were already at pea= k power anyway. Larger ports will make more power at higher RPM. Tuning wi= ll become more critical with the larger ports. A personal anecdote he= re. I built a high reving motorcycle engine in 1978 with all the "best" pa= rts at the time. The engine was unreal at high revs, but if you transition= ed to anything below 4000 RPM by shutting the throttle off and quickly ope= ning it again the engine would "catch" or hit an RPM plateau and= would rev no higher. In fact the engine would die if not returned to idle= ! This horrible malfunction was TUNED OUT later, and the solution was surp= risingly simple, however difficult to find. The key here is that many= people underestimate the job of installing and tuning p-ports. There are= two aspects, first the initial install being sure there are no leaks . Th= en second, and most overlooked is that the system must tolerate the heat= cycles of a high power engine without DEVELOPING NEW LEAKS for a long tim= e. Powersport used an insert with o-rings sealing the port. O-rings or oth= er elastomers work much better than epoxy on long-term sealing because the= re are different expansion rates between the port and the epoxy. On a car= you can usually get away with epoxy for a while. An aircraft is a di= fferent animal. The aircraft engine needs to tolerate 80-100% power&n= bsp;for long periods and then long cold-soaks on the ground. The rotary is= mechanically tough enough but you need to design your subsystems like a= race car that will see a 500 mile long straight-away!  When Pau= l Lamar ran one of the newsletter guys P-port Renesis at MazdaTrix, They= got great numbers, but only after changing to an intake that MazdaTrix ha= d spent lots of time tuning. P-ports will run great, and even idle well if= not too oversized, but don't expect the tuning to be real easy. Remember= you are designing a new intake, exhaust, and the equivilent of a new cam= timing all at once. The rotary is very much like a two-cycle in that resp= ect. The results can be very worth while if you understand the difficulty= involved.
Bill Jepson
 
-----Original Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@a= anet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Jun 21, 2010 2:36 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines
 Bryan,
Not all P-ports= are equal.
More power =3D mo= re fuel.
Talk to Bill Jeps= on ( on here) about availability of new P-ports.
George ( down und= er).
All this talk of ad= ditional power coupled with an easier intake design has me thinking I shou= ld probably go this direction with my Renesis.  It=E2=80=99s still on= the stand after rebuild.
I haven=E2=80=99t= constructed the manifold yet anyway.
 
I assume fuel flow= will be higher than normal? 
Is slide throttle= best option?
 
Need to search arch= ives I guess.
 
Good info Lynn, Tha= nks
 
Bryan=
 
 
 
 
From:<= SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Rotary= motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net] On Behal= f Of Lynn Hanover
Sent: Monday, June 21, 201= 0 12:15 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= 13B rotary engines=
 
In a message dated 6/21/2= 010 11:03:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, rv-4mike@cox.net writes:
Thanks for= the feedback Lynn. Unusual to see a "poor port design" actually aid perfo= rmance.
 
Mike Wills<= /SPAN>
 
 
It is not obvious until= you start graphing the open and close events, but the side port which use= s the side of the rotor as a shutter to open and close the port, offers Ma= zda great latitude in port timing.  In the periphery ported engine (b= oth ports) it is impossible to arrive at zero overlap, and have an engine= that will produce any power at all. The apex seal does not close off eith= er port at all, it just valves gasses in one direction or another. =
 
In addition, the overlap= of the periphery ported engine is far more effective flow wise than overl= ap in the side ported engine. One apex seal is above the intake port when= the opposing apex seal is below the exhaust port. Flow between the two is= unobstructed.
 
So, at low RPM you get fr= esh mixture leaving through the exhaust port, and combinations of burned= and unburned fuel and exhaust gasses flowing partway back into the intake= runners.
 
This reduces the low RPM= output to the point that the engine seems quit docile, and is easy to dri= ve around in the car, slowly, or possibly taxi in an aircraft.  This= would make off idle tuning data useless as there will be fuel burning rig= ht on top of the EGT probes, and unburned fuel reaching the F/A sensor.&nb= sp;
 
The engine will act = along the lines of a piston engine with a long duration cam. When the engi= ne reaches its happy RPM where all of the mixture is burning inside the en= gine, it will step up on the "CAM" and you will see what a good idea this= was. Use slow throttle inputs until you find the "WOW" RPM, and be ready= with all available rudder.  
When we first ran a facto= ry periphery port engine, we found that there were places on the track tha= t would not allow full throttle. This with 11" wide slicks. Thank Heaven= for rev limiters. The driver reported the rear end getting real loose cre= sting hills and bumps.
 
Why yes it was..........<= /SPAN>
 
Lynn E. Hanover 
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