X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw0-f184.google.com ([209.85.211.184] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4365272 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:20:50 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.211.184; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by ywh14 with SMTP id 14so2714124ywh.25 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:20:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer :mime-version:subject:date:references; bh=NZfPrlY3I9yvq8HODIk5s1b1BcSFU3O/a2oIsHvi9Qo=; b=my4/rxihuuwvhphrXIwiqg82iSvRJJTHC0VtE/5HmAYkHd6GO2pbzVf74Kx1vcKwWx cHIEMNmOeqSOAMGj3KZYYJHBY6WlRGcODgABKms7sISxwePG+RcbPEekjJ3rgK1YRpO0 cDjQLvDfZ3atFvsaD/ym/EJ6/ZUmurjgNcLHM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date :references; b=COuNohAVmFpYcxu+m2nJ4Uk6y+/RcncmVzbN4DCtYVEUZBy+DfBneYbILFXFttmeF2 F458K8no5b7yKOSp4yJSkTZAvIDaDGqvMKMWCkc3ZiHytPzubUVPYebTYFOYZ9DHALfo VHH6JYy5zJ7k6u7D3WpjNSv8aalr89NvZ/62Q= Received: by 10.151.4.17 with SMTP id g17mr4932187ybi.430.1277148015923; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [10.44.148.6] ([166.205.13.24]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f1sm43899201ybh.2.2010.06.21.12.20.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <17C43AF5-51A7-4E72-9E36-C122C177C319@gmail.com> From: Mark To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1-340615081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:20:41 -0500 References: --Apple-Mail-1-340615081 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is a 20b. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 21, 2010, at 1:28 PM, "Bryan Winberry" = wrote: > Is Mark attempting to PP a Renesis? > BW > > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] =20= > On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 1:18 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines > > I recommend you wait and see how Mark Steitle comes out with his =20 > setup first. He already says he would probably not go this route =20 > again. He is having problems with idle, which Lynn pretty much =20 > explains with the overlap of the intake/exhaust. Also even with the =20= > MT prop, Mark is having trouble getting rpms up to the range that =20 > Lynn says the PP engine works best at. We would like to get 7K rpm =20= > on take off and climb, but the balance of operation will be in the =20 > 5-6K rpm range. Lynn says the PP doesn=E2=80=99t start to kick in = till 7K+. > > The rpm problem is a conundrum with the MT prop. If you assume the =20= > prop is going into fine pitch, and the gearbox is not binding, and =20 > the engine is not going lean, and the timing is correct, it would =20 > seem that he should be able to rev to the same 7500 or higher rpm =20 > that he was going to originally. > > By the way, Mark, I was doing some calculations to see what the prop =20= > pitch would have to be to get your speed, and discovered a =20 > discrepancy in your reported rpms. You said 5200 engine, 1700 =20 > prop. That wont work with the 2.85 ratio??? Can you tell us more? =20= > Maybe someone can help you troubleshoot. > > Bill B > > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] =20= > On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 12:23 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines > > All this talk of additional power coupled with an easier intake =20 > design has me thinking I should probably go this direction with my =20 > Renesis. It=E2=80=99s still on the stand after rebuild. > I haven=E2=80=99t constructed the manifold yet anyway. > > I assume fuel flow will be higher than normal? > > Is slide throttle best option? > > Need to search archives I guess. > > Good info Lynn, Thanks > > Bryan > > > > > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] =20= > On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 12:15 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines > > In a message dated 6/21/2010 11:03:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, = rv-4mike@cox.net=20 > writes: > Thanks for the feedback Lynn. Unusual to see a "poor port design" =20 > actually aid performance. > > Mike Wills > > > It is not obvious until you start graphing the open and close =20 > events, but the side port which uses the side of the rotor as a =20 > shutter to open and close the port, offers Mazda great latitude in =20 > port timing. In the periphery ported engine (both ports) it is =20 > impossible to arrive at zero overlap, and have an engine that will =20 > produce any power at all. The apex seal does not close off either =20 > port at all, it just valves gasses in one direction or another. > > In addition, the overlap of the periphery ported engine is far more =20= > effective flow wise than overlap in the side ported engine. One apex =20= > seal is above the intake port when the opposing apex seal is below =20 > the exhaust port. Flow between the two is unobstructed. > > So, at low RPM you get fresh mixture leaving through the exhaust =20 > port, and combinations of burned and unburned fuel and exhaust =20 > gasses flowing partway back into the intake runners. > > This reduces the low RPM output to the point that the engine seems =20 > quit docile, and is easy to drive around in the car, slowly, or =20 > possibly taxi in an aircraft. This would make off idle tuning data =20= > useless as there will be fuel burning right on top of the EGT =20 > probes, and unburned fuel reaching the F/A sensor. > > The engine will act along the lines of a piston engine with a long =20 > duration cam. When the engine reaches its happy RPM where all of the =20= > mixture is burning inside the engine, it will step up on the "CAM" =20 > and you will see what a good idea this was. Use slow throttle inputs =20= > until you find the "WOW" RPM, and be ready with all available rudder. > > When we first ran a factory periphery port engine, we found that =20 > there were places on the track that would not allow full throttle. =20 > This with 11" wide slicks. Thank Heaven for rev limiters. The driver =20= > reported the rear end getting real loose cresting hills and bumps. > > Why yes it was.......... > > Lynn E. Hanover --Apple-Mail-1-340615081 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It is a 20b.


Sent from my = iPhone

On Jun 21, 2010, at 1:28 PM, "Bryan Winberry" = <bryanwinberry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

=

Is Mark attempting to PP a = Renesis?

BW

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Monday, June 21, = 2010 1:18 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = 13B rotary engines

 

I recommend you wait and see how = Mark Steitle comes out with his setup first.  He already says he would = probably not go this route again.  He is having problems with idle, which = Lynn = pretty much explains with the overlap of the intake/exhaust.  Also even with the MT = prop, Mark is having trouble getting rpms up to the range that Lynn says the PP = engine works best at.  We would like to get 7K rpm on take off and climb, = but the balance of operation will be in the 5-6K rpm range.  Lynn says the = PP doesn=E2=80=99t start to kick in till 7K+.

 

The rpm problem is a conundrum with = the MT prop.  If you assume the prop is going into fine pitch, and the = gearbox is not binding, and the engine is not going lean, and the timing is = correct, it would seem that he should be able to rev to the same 7500 or higher rpm that = he was going to originally.

 

By the way, Mark, I was doing some calculations to see what the prop pitch would have to be to get your = speed, and discovered a discrepancy in your reported rpms.  You said 5200 = engine, 1700 prop.  That wont work with the 2.85 ratio???  Can you = tell us more?  Maybe someone can help you = troubleshoot.

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry
Sent: Monday, June 21, = 2010 12:23 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = 13B rotary engines

 

All this talk of additional power = coupled with an easier intake design has me thinking I should probably go this direction with my Renesis.  It=E2=80=99s still on the stand after = rebuild.

I haven=E2=80=99t constructed the = manifold yet anyway.

 

I assume fuel flow will be higher = than normal?

 

Is slide throttle best = option?

 

Need to search archives I = guess.

 

Good info Lynn, = Thanks

 

Bryan

 

 

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover
Sent: Monday, June 21, = 2010 12:15 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = 13B rotary engines

 

Thanks for = the feedback Lynn. Unusual to see a "poor port design" actually aid = performance.

 

Mike = Wills

 

=

 

It is not obvious until you start graphing the open and close = events, but the side port which uses the side of the rotor as a shutter to open = and close the port, offers Mazda great latitude in port timing.  In the periphery ported engine (both ports) it is impossible to arrive at zero overlap, and have an engine that will produce any power at all. The apex = seal does not close off either port at all, it just valves gasses in one = direction or another.

 

In addition, the overlap of the periphery ported engine is far = more effective flow wise than overlap in the side ported engine. One apex = seal is above the intake port when the opposing apex seal is below the exhaust = port. Flow between the two is unobstructed.

 

So, at low RPM you get fresh mixture leaving through the exhaust = port, and combinations of burned and unburned fuel and exhaust gasses flowing = partway back into the intake runners.

 

This reduces the low RPM output to the point that the engine = seems quit docile, and is easy to drive around in the car, slowly, or possibly taxi = in an aircraft.  This would make off idle tuning data useless as there = will be fuel burning right on top of the EGT probes, and unburned fuel reaching = the F/A sensor. 

 

The engine will act along the lines of a piston engine with = a long duration cam. When the engine reaches its happy RPM where all of the = mixture is burning inside the engine, it will step up on the "CAM" and you will see what a good idea this was. Use slow throttle inputs = until you find the "WOW" RPM, and be ready with all available rudder. =

 

When we first ran a factory periphery port engine, we found that = there were places on the track that would not allow full throttle. This with = 11" wide slicks. Thank Heaven for rev limiters. The driver reported the rear = end getting real loose cresting hills and = bumps.

 

Why yes it was..........

 

Lynn E. Hanover 

=
= --Apple-Mail-1-340615081--