X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-iw0-f180.google.com ([209.85.214.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4365196 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:28:35 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.180; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by iwn2 with SMTP id 2so274368iwn.25 for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:27:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=A2orkRrPZhKYZLA12dYCf+Ras1cCAvE9F23XGj72hlw=; b=TMNrVaMEiPFhJPRlSN/6iJnywfzU/g2CiieTn7wG+Kj6TNpZhcaOY/by2Qhh3vQW2y q0Qc0UkgY2TTV6AW7bYBJXj9yqulSvHKS+niOwQDivoRevI8YyMF/pb5uff8qLJeOrS/ xU1VwwkVGxh3UtNMKY134A7CSlRQm+MBf7lcc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=lTGdi7CZ+QH3g8acLqS/ggPS0Xz9WtHQdMvm1RxnF461TRkDVTIGvLnB6flcPcbWFT DGnrmlAAKrR3x8Lmzqq7w+EnKsNl+RZ3dEbXMVIgV1XCe8bAZfhjhgTz+ubUqZxCTcR0 S1Dk5dpLtOwTwzHfaUjHTHapeMvx/WnWREP9A= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.149.202 with SMTP id u10mr6394513ibv.56.1277144879421; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.174.197 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:27:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:27:59 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=005045013c62dd662404898e76d5 --005045013c62dd662404898e76d5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, Yes, prop rpm might actually be somewhere between 1789 and 1824 rpm correlating to 5100 - 5200 engine rpm. Or, it could be right on 1700 and the engine was only turning 4845. I was reading the EM-2 and accepting the numbers as close enough for gov't work. My guess is that the EM-2 is close= r to reality than the dial on the M/T controller. I haven't checked the prop rpm with handheld tach to see if it agrees with the controller dial, but you're welcome to hold the tach while I run it up. Bring your goggles. ;-) Seriously though, my point was that at identical operationg conditions, the p-port was 10-12 kts faster than with the side port motor. It could be due to the improved breathing of the p-port, then again, it may be due to the MSD ignitions, or better intake/exhaust, etc. Mark On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > I recommend you wait and see how Mark Steitle comes out with his setup > first. He already says he would probably not go this route again. He is > having problems with idle, which Lynn pretty much explains with the overl= ap > of the intake/exhaust. Also even with the MT prop, Mark is having troubl= e > getting rpms up to the range that Lynn says the PP engine works best at. = We > would like to get 7K rpm on take off and climb, but the balance of operat= ion > will be in the 5-6K rpm range. Lynn says the PP doesn=92t start to kick = in > till 7K+. > > > > The rpm problem is a conundrum with the MT prop. If you assume the prop = is > going into fine pitch, and the gearbox is not binding, and the engine is = not > going lean, and the timing is correct, it would seem that he should be ab= le > to rev to the same 7500 or higher rpm that he was going to originally. > > > > By the way, Mark, I was doing some calculations to see what the prop pitc= h > would have to be to get your speed, and discovered a discrepancy in your > reported rpms. You said 5200 engine, 1700 prop. That wont work with the > 2.85 ratio??? Can you tell us more? Maybe someone can help you > troubleshoot. > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Bryan Winberry > *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 12:23 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines > > > > All this talk of additional power coupled with an easier intake design ha= s > me thinking I should probably go this direction with my Renesis. It=92s = still > on the stand after rebuild. > > I haven=92t constructed the manifold yet anyway. > > > > I assume fuel flow will be higher than normal? > > > > Is slide throttle best option? > > > > Need to search archives I guess. > > > > Good info Lynn, Thanks > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Lynn Hanover > *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 12:15 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines > > > > In a message dated 6/21/2010 11:03:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > rv-4mike@cox.net writes: > > Thanks for the feedback Lynn. Unusual to see a "poor port design" > actually aid performance. > > > > Mike Wills > > > > > > It is not obvious until you start graphing the open and close events, but > the side port which uses the side of the rotor as a shutter to open and > close the port, offers Mazda great latitude in port timing. In the > periphery ported engine (both ports) it is impossible to arrive at zero > overlap, and have an engine that will produce any power at all. The apex > seal does not close off either port at all, it just valves gasses in one > direction or another. > > > > In addition, the overlap of the periphery ported engine is far more > effective flow wise than overlap in the side ported engine. One apex seal= is > above the intake port when the opposing apex seal is below the exhaust po= rt. > Flow between the two is unobstructed. > > > > So, at low RPM you get fresh mixture leaving through the exhaust port, an= d > combinations of burned and unburned fuel and exhaust gasses flowing partw= ay > back into the intake runners. > > > > This reduces the low RPM output to the point that the engine seems quit > docile, and is easy to drive around in the car, slowly, or possibly taxi = in > an aircraft. This would make off idle tuning data useless as there will = be > fuel burning right on top of the EGT probes, and unburned fuel reaching t= he > F/A sensor. > > > > The engine will act along the lines of a piston engine with a long durati= on > cam. When the engine reaches its happy RPM where all of the mixture is > burning inside the engine, it will step up on the "CAM" and you will see > what a good idea this was. Use slow throttle inputs until you find the "W= OW" > RPM, and be ready with all available rudder. > > > > When we first ran a factory periphery port engine, we found that there we= re > places on the track that would not allow full throttle. This with 11" wid= e > slicks. Thank Heaven for rev limiters. The driver reported the rear end > getting real loose cresting hills and bumps. > > > > Why yes it was.......... > > > > Lynn E. Hanover > --005045013c62dd662404898e76d5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,
=A0
Yes,=A0prop rpm=A0might actually be somewhere between 1789 and 1824 rp= m correlating to 5100 - 5200 engine rpm.=A0 Or, it could be right on 1700 a= nd the engine was only turning 4845.=A0 I was reading the EM-2 and acceptin= g the numbers as close enough for gov't work.=A0 My guess is that the E= M-2 is closer to reality than the dial on the M/T controller.=A0 I haven= 9;t checked the prop rpm with handheld tach to see if it agrees with the co= ntroller dial, but you're welcome to hold the=A0tach while I run it up.= =A0 Bring your goggles.=A0 ;-)=A0
=A0
Seriously though, my point was that at identical=A0operationg conditio= ns,=A0the p-port was=A010-12 kts faster=A0than with the side port motor.=A0= It could be due to the improved breathing of the p-port,=A0then again, it = may be due to the MSD ignitions, or better intake/exhaust, etc.=A0
=A0
Mark=A0
=A0


=A0
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Bill Bradburry= <bbradbur= ry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

I recommend you= wait and see how Mark Steitle comes out with his setup first.=A0 He alread= y says he would probably not go this route again.=A0 He is having problems = with idle, which Lynn pretty much explains with the overlap of the intake/e= xhaust.=A0 Also even with the MT prop, Mark is having trouble getting rpms = up to the range that Lynn says the PP engine works best at.=A0 We would lik= e to get 7K rpm on take off and climb, but the balance of operation will be= in the 5-6K rpm range.=A0 Lynn says the PP doesn=92t start to kick in till= 7K+.

=A0

The rpm problem= is a conundrum with the MT prop.=A0 If you assume the prop is going into f= ine pitch, and the gearbox is not binding, and the engine is not going lean= , and the timing is correct, it would seem that he should be able to rev to= the same 7500 or higher rpm that he was going to originally.=

=A0

By the way, Mar= k, I was doing some calculations to see what the prop pitch would have to b= e to get your speed, and discovered a discrepancy in your reported rpms.=A0= You said 5200 engine, 1700 prop.=A0 That wont work with the 2.85 ratio???= =A0 Can you tell us more?=A0 Maybe someone can help you troubleshoot.

=A0

Bill B

=A0

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010= 12:23 PM
To: Rotary mot= ors in aircraft
Subject:= [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines

=A0

All this talk o= f additional power coupled with an easier intake design has me thinking I s= hould probably go this direction with my Renesis. =A0It=92s still on the st= and after rebuild.

I haven=92t con= structed the manifold yet anyway.

=A0

I assume fuel f= low will be higher than normal?

=A0

Is slide thrott= le best option?

=A0

Need to search = archives I guess.

=A0

Good info Lynn,= Thanks

=A0

Bryan

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0

From:= Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010= 12:15 PM
To: Rotary mot= ors in aircraft
Subject:= [FlyRotary] Re: 13B rotary engines

=A0

In a message dated 6/21/2010 11:03:01 A.M. Eastern St= andard Time, rv-4mike= @cox.net writes:

Thanks fo= r the feedback Lynn. Unusual to see a "poor port design" actually= aid performance.

=A0

Mike Will= s

=A0<= /font>

=A0

It is not obvious until you start graphing the open a= nd close events, but the side port which uses the side of the rotor as a sh= utter to open and close the port, offers Mazda great latitude in port timin= g.=A0 In the periphery ported engine (both ports) it is impossible to arriv= e at zero overlap, and have an engine that will produce any power at all. T= he apex seal does not close off either port at all, it just valves gasses i= n one direction or another.

=A0

In addition, the overlap of the periphery ported engi= ne is far more effective flow wise than overlap in the side ported engine. = One apex seal is above the intake port when the opposing apex seal is below= the exhaust port. Flow between the two is unobstructed.

=A0

So, at low RPM you get fresh mixture leaving through = the exhaust port, and combinations of burned and unburned fuel and exhaust = gasses flowing partway back into the intake runners.

=A0

This reduces the low RPM output to the point that the= engine seems quit docile, and is easy to drive around in the car, slowly, = or possibly taxi in an aircraft.=A0 This would make off idle tuning data us= eless as there will be fuel burning right on top of the EGT probes, and unb= urned fuel reaching the F/A sensor.=A0

=A0

The engine will act=A0along the lines of a piston eng= ine with a long duration cam. When the engine reaches its happy RPM where a= ll of the mixture is burning inside the engine, it will step up on the &quo= t;CAM" and you will see what a good idea this was. Use slow throttle i= nputs until you find the "WOW" RPM, and be ready with all availab= le rudder.

=A0

When we first ran a factory periphery port engine, we= found that there were places on the track that would not allow full thrott= le. This with 11" wide slicks. Thank Heaven for rev limiters. The driv= er reported the rear end getting real loose cresting hills and bumps.

=A0

Why yes it was..........

=A0

Lynn E. Hanover=A0


--005045013c62dd662404898e76d5--