X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao102.cox.net ([68.230.241.44] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.7) with ESMTP id 4321256 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 20 May 2010 23:25:32 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.44; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao102.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100521032457.NPZJ20234.fed1rmmtao102.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Thu, 20 May 2010 23:24:57 -0400 Received: from willsPC ([174.66.168.165]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id L3RA1e00L3aSypJ043RAra; Thu, 20 May 2010 23:25:10 -0400 X-VR-Score: 0.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=RDGknaWEColYBAosNzHWAUqP/VR6Ab6kioi0WieaKDU= c=1 sm=1 a=r1LsjpsLelcA:10 a=0qYQvVkOOIcA:10 a=QUPZLcLVOz1HnoVFXOM4wA==:17 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=8pmmvTz3g2o1kqgAgK0A:9 a=8EussL8TV8lxeTYtKEkA:7 a=4WDhE6E3qVWEO68xoLNegjsVVGUA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=uhPMnebkAAAA:8 a=1S3DNlRqkTlyexgO1XYA:9 a=bIqu4UX0qP3ZOmmlxksA:7 a=REy6nNjg5NSRcwU9zEa_-xk5szMA:4 a=Hs9J3SXIuHcA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=QUPZLcLVOz1HnoVFXOM4wA==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <7426ED976A3140CD978C4064BCEA3F48@willsPC> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: tehachapi [off subject] Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 20:24:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0078_01CAF85A.8373F440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01CAF85A.8373F440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's a skydive operator who parks his plane right next to my hangar = (Cessna 210). I've always been amazed that he hasn't had to dead stick = that thing in. First thing in the morning he fires it up, taxies to the = active, and immediate full power takeoff with the engine still stone = cold. No run up. Back on the ground 10 - 15 minutes later. Repeat = process all day long. Of course they did just put a new engine in it. Mike Wills From: H & J Johnson=20 Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 11:05 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: tehachapi [off subject] I've ~1000hrs of flying sky divers which is a similar style of flying. [ = except we had to take them 'all the way up' :)] Standard proceedure was = to fly pretty much max power [limited to 20-21" IIRC, in a 182 w/ a = 470]. We'd be back to ~18" at 12000, once we dropped the divers it was = red line on the airspeed [unless it was bumpy due to daytime heating] = and keep the nose down. "Warping" was frowned upon [where the plane is = stuck in a turn and then you stick the G's on and look out your window = to watch the wings flex [or warp]] although you needed to pull some G's = at some point as you couldn't just go in a straight line forever.=20 It's a bit unsettling the first time you watch those wings flex.. We'd = only pull until we couldn't see the outboard screw heads [holding the = tips on] and just try and hold that many g's while not getting into a = spiral [picking up speed]. All the time we are screaming down, we're = maintaining 18" of MAP and every 1000ft we'd pull off another 1/2". By = the time we got down to tree top level you'd be almost at idle and if = you planned it right you wouldn't need to add any power before touch = down, just bleed speed, yank the flaps [manual flaps on those old 182's] = on the base/final turn and grease 'er in on a grass strip [w/ a 150ft = hill at one end and pine trees at the other :)].=20 Someone had taken a pic at the drop zone of one of my 'last ride' = flights [last flight of the day as the sun was setting] where you can = see the tip lights, one over the other [vertically as the plane was = pretty much in a ~90deg bank @ ~ 200ft] as I'm coming 'round to final, = all in that evening 'sweet light' w/ pine trees as far as you could see = in the background... Loved that picture.. It certainly wasn't "for the faint of heart" flying. Never blew a jug on any of my dive planes on any of the seasons I flew, = so must have been doing something right. [However, I did have a jumper = hit the tail due to an early chute deployment.. but thats another story] Some [most?!] days I miss that crazy flying [compared to the hrs of = straight a level I have to do now :)] J Johnson > Ray,=20 >=20 > Sounds like your procedure works. One of the tow pilots where I=20 > used to soar would basically chop power and go into an inverted=20 > military break to the left after release and then some sort of=20 > Walter Mitty full flap super slip to landing. The last part looked=20 > about like a 100 ft rope break drill except worse!=20 >=20 > It saves time and looks impressive as hell until the engine needs=20 > cylinders 1000 hrs before it should! Tow planes are one place=20 > where liquid cooling would have some huge advantages. I think=20 > there was a club over in Europe that put a liquid cooled auto=20 > engine in a Pawnee. In an ideal tow plane you could do what my=20 > former tow pilot did with no problems....It would also be nice if=20 > they had dive brakes. It might be more fun to fly the tow plane=20 > than the gliders at that point...;-)=20 >=20 > Ideal tow plane pattern.=20 >=20 > Establish release end of downwind @ 3Kft or so=20 > Chop Power=20 > Roll inverted=20 > Pull back on stick=20 > Deploy dive brakes=20 > Dive for end of runway=20 > Pull out of dive=20 > deploy flaps=20 > Flare and touch down dirty=20 > bleed off speed and stop ready to hook up the next glider.=20 > clean up do over.=20 >=20 > I realize this would give the 5 mile final types a heart=20 > attack...but it would be fun. Maybe make it a two seater so you=20 > could charge for rides ;-)=20 >=20 > Monty=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Ray Cole=20 > To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 12:06 AM=20 > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: tehachapi [off subject]=20 >=20 >=20 > Hello Monty,=20 >=20 > This discussion brought back thoughts I had when I was active in=20 > our local Soaring group. I thought a three rotor would work well=20 > in the nose of our Piper Pawnee for towing. Your are correct in=20 > that the 0-540 engine does not make full TBO standards. The trick=20 > is at release to dump full flaps and slowly reduce power as the=20 > engine cools while diving for the runway. In a perfect launch, the=20 > temps and the flare occur at about the same. It is amazing that=20 > for the most part we were getting pretty good engine life.=20 >=20 > Good to see your post.=20 >=20 > Ray=20 >=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01CAF85A.8373F440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There's a skydive operator who parks his plane = right=20 next to my hangar (Cessna 210). I've always been amazed that he hasn=92t = had to=20 dead stick that thing in. First thing in the morning he fires it up, = taxies to=20 the active, and immediate full power takeoff with the engine still stone = cold.=20 No run up. Back on the ground 10 - 15 minutes later. Repeat process = all day=20 long. Of course they did just put a new engine in it.
 
Mike Wills

Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 11:05 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: tehachapi [off = subject]

I've ~1000hrs of flying sky divers which is a similar = style of=20 flying. [ except we had to take them 'all the way up' :)] Standard=20 proceedure was to fly pretty much max power [limited to 20-21" IIRC, in = a 182 w/=20 a 470]. We'd be back to ~18" at 12000, once we dropped the divers it was = red=20 line on the airspeed [unless it was bumpy due to daytime = heating] and=20 keep the nose down. "Warping" was frowned upon [where the = plane is=20 stuck in a turn and then you stick the G's on and look out your window = to watch=20 the wings flex [or warp]] although you needed to pull some G's at some = point as=20 you couldn't just go in a straight line forever.

It's a bit unsettling the first time you watch those wings = flex..=20 We'd only pull until we couldn't see the outboard screw heads [holding = the tips=20 on]  and just try and hold that many g's while not getting = into a=20 spiral [picking up speed]. All the time we are screaming down, we're = maintaining=20 18" of MAP and every 1000ft we'd pull off another 1/2". By the time we = got down=20 to tree top level you'd be almost at idle and if you planned it right = you=20 wouldn't need to add any power before touch down, just bleed speed, = yank=20 the flaps [manual flaps on those old 182's] on the base/final turn and = grease=20 'er in on a grass strip [w/ a 150ft hill at one end and pine trees = at the=20 other :)].

Someone had taken a pic at the drop zone of one of my = 'last=20 ride' flights [last flight of the day as the sun was setting] where you = can see=20 the tip lights, one over the other [vertically as the plane was pretty = much in a=20 ~90deg bank @ ~ 200ft] as I'm coming 'round to final, all in that = evening 'sweet=20 light' w/ pine trees as far as you could see in the background...  = Loved=20 that picture..

It certainly wasn't "for the faint of heart" = flying.

Never blew a jug on any of my dive planes on any of the = seasons I=20 flew, so must have been doing something right. [However, I did have a = jumper hit=20 the tail due to an early chute deployment.. but thats another=20 story]

Some [most?!] days I miss that crazy flying = [compared to=20 the hrs of straight a level I have to do now :)]

J Johnson

 

> Ray,
>
> Sounds like your procedure works. One of = the tow=20 pilots where I
> used to soar would basically chop power and go = into an=20 inverted
> military break to the left after release and then some = sort of=20
> Walter Mitty full flap super slip to landing. The last part = looked=20
> about like a 100 ft rope break drill except worse!
> =
> It=20 saves time and looks impressive as hell until the engine needs
>=20 cylinders 1000 hrs before it should! Tow planes are one place
> = where=20 liquid cooling would have some huge advantages. I think
> there = was a=20 club over in Europe that put a liquid cooled auto
> engine in a = Pawnee.=20 In an ideal tow plane you could do what my
> former tow pilot did = with no=20 problems....It would also be nice if
> they had dive brakes. It = might be=20 more fun to fly the tow plane
> than the gliders at that = point...;-)=20
>
> Ideal tow plane pattern.
>
> Establish = release=20 end of downwind @ 3Kft or so
> Chop Power
> Roll inverted =
>=20 Pull back on stick
> Deploy dive brakes
> Dive for end of = runway=20
> Pull out of dive
> deploy flaps
> Flare and touch = down=20 dirty
> bleed off speed and stop ready to hook up the next = glider.=20
> clean up do over.
>
> I realize this would give = the 5=20 mile final types a heart
> attack...but it would be fun. Maybe = make it a=20 two seater so you
> could charge for rides ;-)
>
> = Monty=20
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Ray = Cole=20
>  To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>  Sent: = Thursday, May=20 20, 2010 12:06 AM
>  Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: tehachapi [off = subject]
>
>
>  Hello Monty,
> =
> =20 This discussion brought back thoughts I had when I was active in =
> our=20 local Soaring group. I thought a three rotor would work well
> in = the=20 nose of our Piper Pawnee for towing. Your are correct in
> that = the 0-540=20 engine does not make full TBO standards. The trick
> is at = release to=20 dump full flaps and slowly reduce power as the
> engine cools = while=20 diving for the runway. In a perfect launch, the
> temps and the = flare=20 occur at about the same. It is amazing that
> for the most part = we were=20 getting pretty good engine life.
>
>  Good to see = your post.=20
>
>  Ray
> 

--

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