X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao102.cox.net ([68.230.241.44] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.5) with ESMTP id 4230145 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 00:16:56 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.44; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo03.cox.net ([70.169.32.75]) by fed1rmmtao102.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100422041620.EFTQ20234.fed1rmmtao102.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 00:16:20 -0400 Received: from willsPC ([174.66.169.142]) by fed1rmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id 8UGL1e00734gpFS04UGLk8; Thu, 22 Apr 2010 00:16:20 -0400 X-VR-Score: 0.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=b4II0uhcJPnwjva2/FqJSYAtAoopJitAe4Ogu0tU6w4= c=1 sm=1 a=1AxR2Bxg0C4A:10 a=cPUexvdKvEVW1PN6gG+JiA==:17 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=C9tXSm32vPKTAt0mUV4A:9 a=5XggAUpyz0Qdp_z0wtsA:7 a=veaO647xq-CViYS6ttbdCbKWVPYA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=gx3eBhheKL3xfMxI:21 a=f-7uqPJcvuNXVXYV:21 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=6RsZE-jKPaLeVfay9l4A:9 a=vsO59c4OvRnA8eIup1oA:7 a=3AhK6xiQDkb74A1JDI3acIRpvtoA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=cPUexvdKvEVW1PN6gG+JiA==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <15677584A01242899D96EC30DD19F77A@willsPC> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 21:16:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B5_01CAE197.E4A684F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B5_01CAE197.E4A684F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, Thanks for the clarification. Sounds like you have a potential winner. = Let us know if/when. Mike Wills From: WRJJRS@aol.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 11:26 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Mike, There are several issues to be concerned with on the all aluminum = intermediate housings. (yes those) First: The coatings are fabulously expensive. They are so hard that they = must be diamond lapped. Lastly if they aren't perfectly applied they can = flake and destroy the engine. On the 20B there are studs that are = threaded into the housing, (the thick one), which is much tougher to = make safe in aluminum. Our point is that we have a way to make the same = intermediate housings out of steel, with only a 1 pound penalty over the = aluminum housings. They will be MUCH cheaper than aluminum and have none = of the coating drawbacks because they will be gas nitrided just like the = standard irons. I believe it was figured one time that an all aluminum = engine in a 13B would save 27 pounds. If that was correct the savings = with the special steel plates would be 24 pounds with none of the = drawbacks. Yes, the plan for any parts we make will be to make them = compatible with the standard mazda engine other than P-porting. One of = the problems noted in making all the housings aluminum other than cost = has been collapse (minor) of the intermediate housings due to heat = cycling. There is nothing wrong with good aluminum housing other than = the fact that they cost about 2500-3000 dollars EACH. The steel housings = would be more like that for all 3 and no flaking even possible. Bill Jepson In a message dated 4/20/2010 7:23:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, = rv-4mike@cox.net writes: Bill, You mention "steel side plates that will weigh 1 pound more than the = aluminum side plates...." Are you talking about the 3 intermediate iron = housings? If not, what are you talking about? What is it that makes replicating the iron housings in aluminum so = difficult? I realize there is a potential wear issue, but is there no = relatively inexpensive means to produce these housings with a hardened = or treated wear surface that will survive while otherwise replicating = the stock configuration? Seems to me that the hot ticket would be a PP configured engine with = all aluminum housings, but otherwise standard Mazda configuration so = that it would be plug and play compatible with the stock engine and = would use standard available parts (like Tracy's PSRU). That is an = engine I'd pay good money for and would seem to hit the sweet spot in = providing potentially more power with less weight than the typical 4 = cylinder Lyc, without all of the budget busting unobtanium of the = original Superlight engine. And I think that is what Brian is getting = at. No coincidence that both of us have overweight RV-4s and would like = to take some weight off. What am I missing? Mike Wills ------=_NextPart_000_00B5_01CAE197.E4A684F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,
 
Thanks for the clarification. Sounds = like you=20 have a potential winner. Let us know if/when.
 
Mike Wills

Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 11:26 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground = runs

Mike,
There are several issues to be concerned with on the all aluminum=20 intermediate housings. (yes those)
First: The coatings are fabulously expensive. They are so hard that = they=20 must be diamond lapped. Lastly if they aren't perfectly applied they can = flake=20 and destroy the engine. On the 20B there are studs that are threaded = into the=20 housing, (the thick one), which is much tougher to make safe in = aluminum. Our=20 point is that we have a way to make the same intermediate housings out = of steel,=20 with only a 1 pound penalty over the aluminum housings. They will be = MUCH=20 cheaper than aluminum and have none of the coating drawbacks because = they will=20 be gas nitrided just like the standard irons. I believe it was figured = one time=20 that an all aluminum engine in a 13B would save 27 pounds. If that was = correct=20 the savings with the special steel plates would be 24 pounds with none = of the=20 drawbacks. Yes, the plan for any parts we make will be to make them = compatible=20 with the standard mazda engine other than P-porting. One of the problems = noted=20 in making all the housings aluminum other than cost has been collapse = (minor) of=20 the intermediate housings due to  heat cycling. There is nothing = wrong with=20 good aluminum housing other than the fact that they cost about 2500-3000 = dollars=20 EACH. The steel housings would be more like that for all 3 and no = flaking even=20 possible.
Bill Jepson
 
In a message dated 4/20/2010 7:23:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,=20 rv-4mike@cox.net writes:
Bill,
 
You mention "steel side plates that = will weigh=20 1 pound more than the aluminum side plates...." Are you talking about = the 3=20 intermediate iron housings? If not, what are you talking = about?
 
What is it that makes replicating = the iron=20 housings in aluminum so difficult? I realize there is a = potential wear=20 issue, but is there no relatively inexpensive means to produce these = housings=20 with a hardened or treated wear surface that will survive while = otherwise=20 replicating the stock configuration?
 
Seems to me that the hot ticket = would be a PP=20 configured engine with all aluminum housings, but otherwise = standard=20 Mazda configuration so that it would be plug and play compatible with = the=20 stock engine and would use standard available parts (like Tracy's = PSRU). That=20 is an engine I'd pay good money for and would seem to hit the sweet = spot in=20 providing potentially more power with less weight than the typical 4=20 cylinder Lyc, without all of the budget busting unobtanium of the = original Superlight engine. And I think that is what Brian is getting = at. No=20 coincidence that both of us have overweight RV-4s and would like to = take some=20 weight off. What am I missing?
 
Mike = Wills
 
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