X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.5) with ESMTP id 4228796 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 01:31:35 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (mail.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.34]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60A901738C1 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:30:58 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 947D4BEC049 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:30:56 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: <8D5235589E8B41989A211FEBE635F0E1@ownerf1fc517b8> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:31:00 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01CAE167.A586B3B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 100420-1, 04/20/2010), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01CAE167.A586B3B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Shipchief/Mike, I can't see a response from Bill- yet, but I feel I should respond. The aggressive corner and side seals take a toll on even the niterited = iron housings, which so far has proven to be the best surface so far. = The next best surface is the det gun surface, whereby steel is blasted = into the surface of aluminium. From my knowledge all other surfaces = fail, no matter how hard because of the soft substrate nature of = aluminium. What Bill is talking about is chrome molly housings, precision water = jet cut and the pieces then oven brazed in one process , the wear = surface then nitrated, very strong very light and a brilliant wear = surface. It has the disadvantage of being 1lb heavier than the aluminium housings = but much stronger and wears much better. All Al housing have the disadvantage of being cast and not as strong/ = dense as 6061. therefore it doesn't offer up a good substrate. It will = be interesting to see how Mazda solved the problem. Mistral tried = everything and when I last talked to them most everything they tried = -failed, last thing I heard was they were considering a specialty alloy = for the housing. George ( down under) I'm thinking an aluminum plate of 6061 could be cut, drilled, milled, = then the wear faces "Nikasil" equivalent electroplated. Is that fairly straightforward if P Ported?=20 -----Original Message----- From: Mike Wills To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, Apr 20, 2010 7:22 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs Bill, You mention "steel side plates that will weigh 1 pound more than the = aluminum side plates...." Are you talking about the 3 intermediate iron = housings? If not, what are you talking about? What is it that makes replicating the iron housings in aluminum so = difficult? I realize there is a potential wear issue, but is there no = relatively inexpensive means to produce these housings with a hardened = or treated wear surface that will survive while otherwise replicating = the stock configuration? Seems to me that the hot ticket would be a PP configured engine with = all aluminum housings, but otherwise standard Mazda configuration so = that it would be plug and play compatible with the stock engine and = would use standard available parts (like Tracy's PSRU). That is an = engine I'd pay good money for and would seem to hit the sweet spot in = providing potentially more power with less weight than the typical 4 = cylinder Lyc, without all of the budget busting unobtanium of the = original Superlight engine. And I think that is what Brian is getting = at. No coincidence that both of us have overweight RV-4s and would like = to take some weight off. What am I missing? Mike Wills From: WRJJRS@aol.com=20 Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 10:58 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground runs In a message dated 4/18/2010 7:50:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, = Bktrub@aol.com writes: What were the original powersport superlight engines? 13B p-port, = with the oil pan mounting flanges cut off, aluminum side housings, = mounted with the exhaust side down? I'm sure there's more to them than = that, but I think that's what they were, basically. II would have liked to see Powersport make just the engines- forget = the whole package- if the engine is light, powerful, and reliable, then = homebuilders will do the rest.=20 Just my two cents. Brian Trubee Brian,=20 So you can get the straight scoop I'll talk about this. The = "Superlite" engine used HIGHLY modified standard Mazda rotor housings. = Almost every other part was custom. Water inlet location was changed. = ALL center and end plates were aluminum with coatings. The engine used = p-ports done the way they have always done, using o-ring seals. Once = done this way they never had leak problems because the o-rings are = designed to handle the heat cycle. The PSRU was a custom built planetary = with a pendrolus damper to move harmonics outside the operating range. = The previously mentioned Mazda housings were reversed and the engine ran = backward so the prop would turn the "right" way. The engine was plugs up = and dry sump from the begining. An absolutely astounding piece of work. = That said they would be too expensive to sell today. Please remember = that this was before Powersport was sold to Ratek Machine in Wisconsin. = I don't know if they are still producing anything or not.=20 Steve has come to me to work to save some of the ideas and update = them so there won't be any intention of using the designs exactly as = done before. Our intention is to produce parts to pay for the cost of = making them for ourselves with the potential of it becoming a full = business much later. There is the possibility of making a complete = engine, but for now only the parts. One item of interest is a steel side = plate for the converted standard engine that weighs only 1 pound more = than the aluminum side plates, but can still be nitrided just like the = standard sideplate. These will be for p-ported engines only as there = won't be any side ports built in. We also want to make a similar = lightweight 20B intermediate housing for 3 rotors using a standard = e-shaft. The standard one weighs 45 pounds and even those have become = unobtainium lately. It must be the rolex 24 hour racers using them up. I = have a local shop quoting the parts as we produce models and drawings as = we want them to be. That is all I can say for now, I'll keep the group = posted as we make progress. Bill Jepson ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01CAE167.A586B3B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Shipchief/Mike,
I can't see a response from Bill- yet, = but I feel I=20 should respond.
The aggressive corner and side seals = take a toll on=20 even the niterited iron housings, which so far has proven to be the best = surface=20 so far. The next best surface is the det gun surface, whereby steel = is=20 blasted into the surface of  aluminium. From my knowledge all other = surfaces fail, no matter how hard because of the soft substrate nature = of=20 aluminium.
 
What Bill is talking about is chrome = molly=20 housings,  precision water jet cut and the pieces  then oven=20 brazed in one process , the wear surface then nitrated, very = strong=20 very light and a brilliant wear surface.
 
It has the disadvantage of being 1lb = heavier than=20 the aluminium housings but much stronger and wears much = better.
 
 All Al housing have the = disadvantage of being=20 cast and not as strong/ dense as 6061. therefore it doesn't offer up a = good=20 substrate. It will be interesting to see how Mazda solved the problem.=20  Mistral tried everything and when I last talked to them most = everything=20 they tried -failed,  last thing I heard was they were = considering a=20 specialty alloy for the housing.
George ( down under)
 
I'm thinking an aluminum = plate of 6061=20 could be cut, drilled, milled, then the wear faces "Nikasil" equivalent=20 electroplated.
Is that fairly straightforward if P Ported?



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net>
To: = Rotary motors=20 in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Tue, Apr 20, 2010 7:22 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for = ground=20 runs

Bill,
 
You mention "steel side plates that = will weigh=20 1 pound more than the aluminum side plates...." Are you talking about = the 3=20 intermediate iron housings? If not, what are you talking = about?
 
What is it that makes replicating = the iron=20 housings in aluminum so difficult? I realize there is a = potential wear=20 issue, but is there no relatively inexpensive means to produce these = housings=20 with a hardened or treated wear surface that will survive while = otherwise=20 replicating the stock configuration?
 
Seems to me that the hot ticket = would be a PP=20 configured engine with all aluminum housings, but otherwise = standard=20 Mazda configuration so that it would be plug and play compatible with = the=20 stock engine and would use standard available parts (like Tracy's = PSRU). That=20 is an engine I'd pay good money for and would seem to hit the sweet = spot in=20 providing potentially more power with less weight than the typical 4=20 cylinder Lyc, without all of the budget busting unobtanium of the = original Superlight engine. And I think that is what Brian is getting = at. No=20 coincidence that both of us have overweight RV-4s and would like to = take some=20 weight off. What am I missing?
 
Mike Wills

Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 10:58 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: cooling for ground = runs

In a message dated 4/18/2010 7:50:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Bktrub@aol.com writes:
What were the original powersport superlight engines? = 13B p-port,=20 with the oil pan mounting flanges cut off, aluminum side = housings,=20 mounted with the exhaust side down? I'm sure there's more to them = than that,=20 but I think that's what they were, basically.
 
II would have liked to see Powersport make just the engines- = forget the=20 whole package- if the engine is light, powerful, and reliable, then=20 homebuilders will do the rest.
 
 
Just my two cents.
 
Brian Trubee
Brian,
 So you can get the straight scoop I'll talk about this. The = "Superlite" engine used HIGHLY modified standard Mazda rotor housings. = Almost=20 every other part was custom. Water inlet location was changed. ALL = center and=20 end plates were aluminum with coatings. The engine used p-ports done = the way=20 they have always done, using o-ring seals. Once done this way they = never had=20 leak problems because the o-rings are designed to handle the heat = cycle. The=20 PSRU was a custom built planetary with a pendrolus damper to move = harmonics=20 outside the operating range. The previously mentioned Mazda housings = were=20 reversed and the engine ran backward so the prop would turn the = "right" way.=20 The engine was plugs up and dry sump from the begining. An absolutely=20 astounding piece of work. That said they would be too expensive to = sell today.=20 Please remember that this was before Powersport was sold to Ratek = Machine in=20 Wisconsin. I don't know if they are still producing anything or not. =
 Steve has come to me to work to save some of the ideas and = update=20 them so there won't be any intention of using the designs exactly as = done=20 before. Our intention is to produce parts to pay for the cost of = making them=20 for ourselves with the potential of it becoming a full business much = later.=20 There is the possibility of making a complete engine, but for now only = the=20 parts. One item of interest is a steel side plate for the = converted=20 standard engine that weighs only 1 pound more than the aluminum side = plates,=20 but can still be nitrided just like the standard sideplate. These will = be for=20 p-ported engines only as there won't be any side ports built in. We = also want=20 to make a similar lightweight 20B intermediate housing for 3 rotors = using a=20 standard e-shaft. The standard one weighs 45 pounds and even those = have become=20 unobtainium lately. It must be the rolex 24 hour racers using them up. = I have=20 a local shop quoting the parts as we produce models and drawings as we = want=20 them to be. That is all I can say for now, I'll keep the group posted = as we=20 make progress.
Bill Jepson
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