X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-da05.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.147] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4181271 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 00:24:01 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.147; envelope-from=Bktrub@aol.com Received: from imo-ma01.mx.aol.com (imo-ma01.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.136]) by imr-da05.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o2S4NPEw031486 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 00:23:25 -0400 Received: from Bktrub@aol.com by imo-ma01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.db7.14b0805 (43952) for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 00:23:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-dc01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-dc01.mx.aol.com [205.188.170.1]) by cia-dd01.mx.aol.com (v127_r1.2) with ESMTP id MAILCIADD011-d2e94baed9b55e; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 00:23:20 -0400 Received: from webmail-m087 (webmail-m087.sim.aol.com [64.12.224.201]) by smtprly-dc01.mx.aol.com (v127_r1.2) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDC018-d2e94baed9b55e; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 00:23:17 -0400 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (Long) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 00:23:17 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 208.46.237.130 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: bktrub@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CC9C45864B24D9_1AC0_35364_webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 31226-STANDARD Received: from 208.46.237.130 by webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com (64.12.224.201) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 28 Mar 2010 00:23:17 -0400 Message-Id: <8CC9C45860D40FF-1AC0-1D3B7@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: Bktrub@aol.com ----------MB_8CC9C45864B24D9_1AC0_35364_webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Heck, I'd be happy just to be able to purchase the pieces to build my own= lightweight, all-aluminum 13B P-port using my existing engine. The thoug= ht of my plane with over 200 hp and weighing under 950 lbs makes me feel= all funny inside : ) . Right now, the engine might be making 180-190= but the plane weighs 1090 lbs. It hasn't flown yet. Soon.... Brian Trubee RV-4 13BREW -----Original Message----- From: Mike Wills To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sat, Mar 27, 2010 8:57 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (Long) Bill, =20 I'm sure you are right, less expensive is more marketable. Same point I tr= ied to make earlier. It was a joke. =20 Having said that, not sure I wouldn=E2=80=99t be willing to pay a sizable= amount (easy to say since its all hypothetical). The thing is I've been= thinking about a Harmon Rocket for a few years now. What would it be wort= h to get HR performance without having to build an entirely new airplane? =20 Since we are talking hypothetically, what would that $25,000 engine look= like? How much of it would be Mazda and how much of it would be custom?= If we were willing to split the difference and essentially retain all the= Mazda pieces except the iron housings are we still talking about $25K? Ju= st thinking out loud here. =20 Mike From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20 Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:05 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (Long) Mike, Would you be interested for $25,000? You see that would be the cost at lea= st in todays dollars. Some people would be interested I'm sure, but not en= ough to base a business on. I think the less expensive version is the prob= able money maker. Bill Jepson=20 Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry From: "Mike Wills" =20 Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 09:02:28 -0700 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (Long) Thanks for the recap Bill. I agree, Ratech went way off the course with th= eir glass panel stuff - should have stuck to the original plan. They were= listed in the latest Kitplanes engine round up so I assume that means the= y at least responded to Kitplanes data call whether or not they are still= actively selling anything. =20 I guess my point (and I'm sure you are well aware) was that many if not mo= st of us have gone this route at least partially because of cost. I'm surp= rised that Eggenfellner has managed to remain in business selling FWF pack= ages that rival the cost of a new Lyc. A friend bought one and spent many= hours (and months) working out the bugs to actually make it work. =20 Happy to see your last sentence. Tracy indeed has what I believe to be the= right business model. Without him I doubt there would be many rotaries fl= ying and I doubt there would be much activity on this list. I hope that yo= ur efforts serve to fill some of the gaps that Tracy doesn=E2=80=99t addre= ss (engines, intakes, exhausts) using the same keep it basic but functiona= l model that Tracy uses. =20 To start with, I would like to place an order for the 164 pound, over 200H= P engine please.=20 =20 Mike =20 From: WRJJRS@aol.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 10:41 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (Long) In a message dated 3/26/2010 6:42:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, rv-4mike@co= x.net writes: George, =20 Hoping that they produce something that not only works, but is within fina= ncial reach. The history to date of FWF packages (including the last itera= tion of Powersport) include lots of cases of pricing that is simply out of= reach. I like the concept of the rotary or wouldn=E2=80=99t be flying one= , but given the choice between being a beta tester for somebody's brand ne= w FWF auto conversion versus buying a brand new Lyc from Vans for the same= or less money, I'd choose the Lyc. =20 Mike Wills Mike and group, A little history. There is something that needs to be said. There are really two distinct "P= owersports." The original was Everett Hatch, Steve Beckham, and their exce= llent machinist Francis. These guys developed some truly spectacular equip= ment. The "Superlite" engine was developed for NASA and was so far removed= from the original Mazda as to be unrecognizable. They developed a spur ge= ar planetary custom designed for the task, and a great pendulous damper th= at worked so well that the engine could be idled at 1000 RPM without the= shakes. BTW This should put to rest the total BS that p-port engines won'= t idle! This was a system that made over 200 HP and weighed 164 pounds FWF= . After building this machine they took stock and realized that they would= have to sell the package for around $25,000. (In the 90s) They were hones= t and figured they would have a hard sell at that cost. They developed a= package that they called the "Iron Eagle" which was basicly a standard Ma= zda modified to live in aircraft use. They used an aircraft leanable mecha= nical fuel injection and the simplest ignition that was dead reliable. Thi= s package used the internal ring gear PSRU designed to be simpler and chea= per than the custom planetary. This package was ready to sell and they had= set an intended price of $14,000. I think they would have had trouble mak= ing them fast enough at that price. This information is all in back issues= of Sport Aviation. Tragically Everett was killed in an aerobatics crash= at that time. Steve and Everett had been partners in business for over 20= years, including a long time before Powersport and Steve was so hurt by= the loss of his friend that he could not continue.=20 Steve sold the Powersport business to Ratek Machine in Wisconsin. This is= the "current" Powersport. They had grand ideas that they would change the= package and make it their own. They designed their own EMS which took a= long time and of course adds a great deal to the development cost of the= package. There were some modifications to the PSRU done as a masters thes= is by Steve Weinzerl. This is basic information that is on their web site.= Every change costs money and the final price they put on the system reall= y takes it out of the low price zone. It was their right to make the chang= es they wanted to after they bought the company but, and understand that= this is my personal opinion, I think that they shot themselves in the foo= t. If they had sold the original package while developing the updates conc= urrently I believe they really would have had something. People really don= 't understand how much work goes into developing a market-ready product.= Ratek has suffered the ills of the current economy as much as anyone. I= don't know if they are currently willing to produce or sell the package.= I am truly saddened by this because I have seen the original stuff and it= was a flyable package. I am a mechanical engineer myself and I've never= seen a more obvious example of deviating from the K. I. S. S. principle.= We need a flight-ready engine and PSRU that is way below the price of a= standard aircraft engine if we want the thing to sell. Tracy is the only= one so far to keep the price down and his stuff is probably in 3/4 of the= rotary engines flying. We need to get back to the basics. Bill Jepson ----------MB_8CC9C45864B24D9_1AC0_35364_webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="--------MB_8CC9C45864B24D9_1AC0_35365_webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com" ----------MB_8CC9C45864B24D9_1AC0_35365_webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Heck, I'd be happy just to be able to purchase the pieces to build my= own lightweight, all-aluminum  13B P-port using my existing engine.= The thought of my plane with over 200 hp and weighing under 950 lbs makes= me feel all funny inside : )  . Right now,  the engine&nbs= p;might be making  180-190 but  the plane weighs 1090  lbs.=   It hasn't flown yet. Soon....
 
Brian Trubee
RV-4 13BREW



-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Mar 27, 2010 8:57 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (Long)

Bill,
 
I'm sure you are right, less expensive= is more marketable. Same point I tried to make earlier. It was a joke.
 
Having said that, not sure I wouldn=E2= =80=99t be willing to pay a sizable amount (easy to say since its all hypo= thetical). The thing is I've been thinking about a Harmon Rocket for a few= years now. What would it be worth to get HR performance without having to= build an entirely new airplane?
 
Since we are talking hypothetically, wh= at would that $25,000 engine look like? How much of it would be Mazda= and how much of it would be custom? If we were willing to split the diffe= rence and essentially retain all the Mazda pieces except the iron hou= sings are we still talking about $25K? Just thinking out loud here.=
 
Mike

Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:05 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (L= ong)

Mike,
Would you be interested for $25,000? You see that would be the cost at lea= st in todays dollars. Some people would be interested I'm sure, but not en= ough to base a business on. I think the less expensive version is the prob= able money maker.
Bill Jepson=20
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: "Mike Wills" <rv-= 4mike@cox.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 09:02:28 -0700
To: Rotary motors in aircraft<flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (L= ong)

Thanks for the recap Bill. I agree, Rat= ech went way off the course with their glass panel stuff - should have stu= ck to the original plan. They were listed in the latest Kitplanes engine= round up so I assume that means they at least responded to Kitplanes data= call whether or not they are still actively selling anything.
 
I guess my point (and I'm sure you are= well aware) was that many if not most of us have gone this route at least= partially because of cost. I'm surprised that Eggenfellner has managed to= remain in business selling FWF packages that rival the cost of a new Lyc.= A friend bought one and spent many hours (and months) working out the bug= s to actually make it work.
 
Happy to see your last sentence. Tracy= indeed has what I believe to be the right business model. Without him I= doubt there would be many rotaries flying and I doubt there would be much= activity on this list. I hope that your efforts serve to fill some of the= gaps that Tracy doesn=E2=80=99t address (engines, intakes, exhausts) usin= g the same keep it basic but functional model that Tracy uses.=
 
To start with, I would like to place an= order for the 164 pound, over 200HP engine please. 3D"Smile=
 
Mike  

Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 10:41 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (L= ong)

In a message dated 3/26/2010 6:42:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, rv-4mike@cox.net writes:
George,
 
Hoping that they produce something that not only= works, but is within financial reach. The history to date of FWF packages= (including the last iteration of Powersport) include lots of cases of pri= cing that is simply out of reach. I like the concept of the rotary or woul= dn=E2=80=99t be flying one, but given the choice between being a beta test= er for somebody's brand new FWF auto conversion versus buying a brand new= Lyc from Vans for the same or less money, I'd choose the Lyc.
 
Mike Wills
Mike and group, A little history.
There is something that needs to be said. There are really two distin= ct "Powersports." The original was Everett Hatch, Steve Beckham, and their= excellent machinist Francis. These guys developed some truly spectacul= ar equipment. The "Superlite" engine was developed for NASA and was so= far removed from the original Mazda as to be unrecognizable. They develop= ed a spur gear planetary custom designed for the task, and a great pendulo= us damper that worked so well that the engine could be idled at 1000 RPM= without the shakes. BTW This should put to rest the total BS that p-port= engines won't idle! This was a system that made over 200 HP and weighed= 164 pounds FWF. After building this machine they took stock and realized= that they would have to sell the package for around $25,000. (In the 90s)= They were honest and figured they would have a hard sell at that cost. Th= ey developed a package that they called the "Iron Eagle" which was basicly= a standard Mazda modified to live in aircraft use. They used an= aircraft leanable mechanical fuel injection and the simplest ignitio= n that was dead reliable. This package used the internal ring gear PSRU de= signed to be simpler and cheaper than the custom planetary. This package= was ready to sell and they had set an intended price of $14,000. I think= they would have had trouble making them fast enough at that price. This= information is all in back issues of Sport Aviation. Tragically Everett= was killed in an aerobatics crash at that time. Steve and Everett had bee= n partners in business for over 20 years, including a long time before Pow= ersport and Steve was so hurt by the loss of his friend that he could not= continue.
 Steve sold the Powersport business to Ratek Machine in Wisconsi= n. This is the "current" Powersport. They had grand ideas that they would= change the package and make it their own. They designed their own EMS whi= ch took a long time and of course adds a great deal to the development cos= t of the package. There were some modifications to the PSRU done as a mast= ers thesis by Steve Weinzerl. This is basic information that is on their= web site. Every change costs money and the final price they put on the sy= stem really takes it out of the low price zone. It was their right to make= the changes they wanted to after they bought the company but, and underst= and that this is my personal opinion, I think that they shot themselves in= the foot. If they had sold the original package while developing the upda= tes concurrently I believe they really would have had something. People re= ally don't understand how much work goes into developing a market-ready pr= oduct. Ratek has suffered the ills of the current economy as much as anyon= e. I don't know if they are currently willing to produce or sell the packa= ge. I am truly saddened by this because I have seen the original stuff and= it was a flyable package. I am a mechanical engineer myself and I've neve= r seen a more obvious example of deviating from the K. I. S. S. principle.= We need a flight-ready engine and PSRU that is way below the price of a= standard aircraft engine if we want the thing to sell. Tracy is the only= one so far to keep the price down and his stuff is probably in 3/4 of the= rotary engines flying. We need to get back to the basics.
Bill Jepson
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