X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imr-ma02.mx.aol.com ([64.12.206.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4180570 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 01:41:53 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.206.40; envelope-from=WRJJRS@aol.com Received: from imo-ma02.mx.aol.com (imo-ma02.mx.aol.com [64.12.78.137]) by imr-ma02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o2R5fA61029320 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 01:41:10 -0400 Received: from WRJJRS@aol.com by imo-ma02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v42.9.) id q.c9f.6639c078 (37576) for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 01:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from magic-m19.mail.aol.com (magic-m19.mail.aol.com [172.21.136.208]) by cia-mb05.mx.aol.com (v127_r1.2) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMB051-92c84bad9a7216b; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 01:41:06 -0400 From: WRJJRS@aol.com Message-ID: <35877.16a16853.38def472@aol.com> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 01:41:06 EDT Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (Long) To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_35877.16a16853.38def472_boundary" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5046 X-AOL-ORIG-IP: 75.210.4.104 X-AOL-IP: 172.21.136.208 X-Spam-Flag:NO X-AOL-SENDER: WRJJRS@aol.com --part1_35877.16a16853.38def472_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en =20 In a message dated 3/26/2010 6:42:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, =20 rv-4mike@cox.net writes: George, =20 Hoping that they produce something that not only works, but is within=20 financial reach. The history to date of FWF packages (including the last= =20 iteration of Powersport) include lots of cases of pricing that is simply= out of=20 reach. I like the concept of the rotary or wouldn=E2=80=99t be flying one= , but given=20 the choice between being a beta tester for somebody's brand new FWF auto= =20 conversion versus buying a brand new Lyc from Vans for the same or less= =20 money, I'd choose the Lyc. =20 Mike Wills Mike and group, A little history. There is something that needs to be said. There are really two distinct = =20 "Powersports." The original was Everett Hatch, Steve Beckham, and their = =20 excellent machinist Francis. These guys developed some truly spectacular= =20 equipment. The "Superlite" engine was developed for NASA and was so far re= moved =20 from the original Mazda as to be unrecognizable. They developed a spur gea= r =20 planetary custom designed for the task, and a great pendulous damper that= =20 worked so well that the engine could be idled at 1000 RPM without the sha= kes.=20 BTW This should put to rest the total BS that p-port engines won't idle!= =20 This was a system that made over 200 HP and weighed 164 pounds FWF. After= =20 building this machine they took stock and realized that they would have= to=20 sell the package for around $25,000. (In the 90s) They were honest and fi= gured=20 they would have a hard sell at that cost. They developed a package that= =20 they called the "Iron Eagle" which was basicly a standard Mazda modified= to=20 live in aircraft use. They used an aircraft leanable mechanical fuel=20 injection and the simplest ignition that was dead reliable. This package= used the=20 internal ring gear PSRU designed to be simpler and cheaper than the custo= m=20 planetary. This package was ready to sell and they had set an intended=20 price of $14,000. I think they would have had trouble making them fast en= ough=20 at that price. This information is all in back issues of Sport Aviation.= =20 Tragically Everett was killed in an aerobatics crash at that time. Steve= and=20 Everett had been partners in business for over 20 years, including a long= =20 time before Powersport and Steve was so hurt by the loss of his friend th= at=20 he could not continue.=20 Steve sold the Powersport business to Ratek Machine in Wisconsin. This= is=20 the "current" Powersport. They had grand ideas that they would change the= =20 package and make it their own. They designed their own EMS which took a lo= ng=20 time and of course adds a great deal to the development cost of the=20 package. There were some modifications to the PSRU done as a masters thes= is by=20 Steve Weinzerl. This is basic information that is on their web site. Ever= y=20 change costs money and the final price they put on the system really take= s it=20 out of the low price zone. It was their right to make the changes they=20 wanted to after they bought the company but, and understand that this is= my=20 personal opinion, I think that they shot themselves in the foot. If they= had=20 sold the original package while developing the updates concurrently I=20 believe they really would have had something. People really don't underst= and how=20 much work goes into developing a market-ready product. Ratek has suffered= =20 the ills of the current economy as much as anyone. I don't know if they= are=20 currently willing to produce or sell the package. I am truly saddened by= =20 this because I have seen the original stuff and it was a flyable package.= I=20 am a mechanical engineer myself and I've never seen a more obvious exampl= e=20 of deviating from the K. I. S. S. principle. We need a flight-ready engin= e=20 and PSRU that is way below the price of a standard aircraft engine if we= =20 want the thing to sell. Tracy is the only one so far to keep the price do= wn=20 and his stuff is probably in 3/4 of the rotary engines flying. We need to= =20 get back to the basics. Bill Jepson --part1_35877.16a16853.38def472_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en <= FONT id=3Drole_document face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
In a message dated 3/26/2010 6:42:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,=20 rv-4mike@cox.net writes:
George,
 
Hoping that they produce something that not on= ly=20 works, but is within financial reach. The history to date of FWF package= s=20 (including the last iteration of Powersport) include lots of cases of pr= icing=20 that is simply out of reach. I like the concept of the rotary or wouldn= =E2=80=99t be=20 flying one, but given the choice between being a beta tester for somebod= y's=20 brand new FWF auto conversion versus buying a brand new Lyc from Vans fo= r the=20 same or less money, I'd choose the Lyc.
 
Mike Wills
Mike and group, A little history.
There is something that needs to be said. There are really two distin= ct=20 "Powersports." The original was Everett Hatch, Steve Beckham, and their=20 excellent machinist Francis. These guys developed some truly spectacula= r=20 equipment. The "Superlite" engine was developed for NASA and was so far re= moved=20 from the original Mazda as to be unrecognizable. They developed a spur gea= r=20 planetary custom designed for the task, and a great pendulous damper that= worked=20 so well that the engine could be idled at 1000 RPM without the shakes. BTW= This=20 should put to rest the total BS that p-port engines won't idle! This was= a=20 system that made over 200 HP and weighed 164 pounds FWF. After building th= is=20 machine they took stock and realized that they would have to sell the pack= age=20 for around $25,000. (In the 90s) They were honest and figured they would= have a=20 hard sell at that cost. They developed a package that they called the "Iro= n=20 Eagle" which was basicly a standard Mazda modified to live in aircraft=20 use. They used an aircraft leanable mechanical fuel injecti= on and=20 the simplest ignition that was dead reliable. This package used the intern= al=20 ring gear PSRU designed to be simpler and cheaper than the custom planetar= y.=20 This package was ready to sell and they had set an intended price of $14,0= 00. I=20 think they would have had trouble making them fast enough at that price.= This=20 information is all in back issues of Sport Aviation. Tragically Everett wa= s=20 killed in an aerobatics crash at that time. Steve and Everett had been par= tners=20 in business for over 20 years, including a long time before Powersport and= Steve=20 was so hurt by the loss of his friend that he could not continue.
 Steve sold the Powersport business to Ratek Machine in Wisconsi= n.=20 This is the "current" Powersport. They had grand ideas that they would cha= nge=20 the package and make it their own. They designed their own EMS which took= a long=20 time and of course adds a great deal to the development cost of the packag= e.=20 There were some modifications to the PSRU done as a masters thesis by Stev= e=20 Weinzerl. This is basic information that is on their web site. Every chang= e=20 costs money and the final price they put on the system really takes it out= of=20 the low price zone. It was their right to make the changes they wanted to= after=20 they bought the company but, and understand that this is my personal opini= on, I=20 think that they shot themselves in the foot. If they had sold the original= =20 package while developing the updates concurrently I believe they really wo= uld=20 have had something. People really don't understand how much work goes into= =20 developing a market-ready product. Ratek has suffered the ills of the curr= ent=20 economy as much as anyone. I don't know if they are currently willing to= produce=20 or sell the package. I am truly saddened by this because I have seen the= =20 original stuff and it was a flyable package. I am a mechanical engineer my= self=20 and I've never seen a more obvious example of deviating from the K. I. S.= S.=20 principle. We need a flight-ready engine and PSRU that is way below the pr= ice of=20 a standard aircraft engine if we want the thing to sell. Tracy is the only= one=20 so far to keep the price down and his stuff is probably in 3/4 of the rota= ry=20 engines flying. We need to get back to the basics.
Bill Jepson
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