X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from EXHUB003-2.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.29] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTPS id 4179603 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:08:10 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.5.74.29; envelope-from=jwhaley@datacast.com Received: from EXVMBX003-5.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.45]) by EXHUB003-2.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.29]) with mapi; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 06:07:33 -0700 From: Jeff Whaley To: Rotary motors in aircraft Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 06:08:02 -0700 Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning Thread-Index: AcrM5LysqpExsikfRvCVNmqMDYEDggAAGuQQ Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0E01794478C882EXVMBX0035e_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0E01794478C882EXVMBX0035e_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Been away on vacation for a two weeks ... Mike, sign me up too for the spre= adsheet ... maybe just post to the list. Jeff From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Bill Schertz Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 9:03 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning Mike, I missed the Kitplanes article, if you could forward the spread sheet, I wo= uld appreciate it. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS Phase I testing From: Mike Wills Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 10:11 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning Bill, Agreed, speeds at 8,000 need to be calibrated. I doubt there's anyone here= who has gone to the trouble of installing this engine with all the associa= ted electronics that doesn't have a GPS. Its not a "dreaded calculation". T= he 4 course method of determining TAS based on groundspeed is well establis= hed and very straightforward. It was published in Kitplanes about a year ag= o and has been converted into a simple Excel spread sheet. I can forward it= to anyone who wants it if you cant find it yourself. It takes all the gues= swork out and provides a meaningful number that is perhaps not absolute, bu= t accepted and used by the Navy Test Pilot School at Pax River, MD among ot= hers. Also agreed that within the RPM ranges we operate in there is a relatively = linear HP response to RPM. The numbers you gave in your initial email were,= " horsepower is around 150 at 6K, maybe 180 at 7K, and 200 at 7.5K". I bel= ieve 250HP @ 7500 is within the range you mentioned - you stated 200 @7.5K.= I'd be happy with an extra 50HP. 7500RPM is a good target number for max R= PM straight and level near sea level - even with a wood FP prop. Mike Wills From: Bill Bradburry Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 7:28 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning Hi Mike, I am gonna have to let Don tell us his speeds, but he was at 8000 feet so i= ndicated speed will have to go thru the dreaded calculation as well in orde= r to find the true airspeed.. :>) since airplanes fly in the air and don= 't touch the ground (except occasionally) every speed you see will be some = kind of calculation and not a "fact". Maybe he has a GPS and can fly some kind of rectangular pattern and find th= e average (no wind) speed.??? Maybe you can get a copy of Paul's dyno sheet and take a look at the horsep= ower he was producing at the lower rpms I mentioned. I will bet they are v= ery close to the numbers I mentioned. Mazda used to claim that the Renesis= produced 250 @ 7500, but they have since backed it off to, I think, 238 @ = maybe 8500. The point I was trying to make about the rotary was that your HP is based o= n rpm. All those high HP numbers are all at really high rpm. Much higher = than we run in the plane, unless, like Mark Steitle, you have a CS prop. Mark gets (I think I saw him say) 7500 on takeoff and although I haven't he= ard him say, I assume he can get the same in cruise as well. Bill B ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Mike Wills Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:37 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning Sorry, not buying it Bill. If you are going to quote speeds here, quote spe= eds, not calculated speeds based on so many variables that the end result i= s meaningless. That sounds like something we'd see on the other list, not h= ere. As far as I know, Don's best reported speed is 174 IAS (and IAS is not= all that meaningful either). Based on performance that Don has actually re= ported his performance is roughly equivalent to mine (and I'm both prop and= gearing limited). His performance may have improved since he reported thos= e numbers. In any case I'd prefer to stick to facts. Speaking of the other list, Paul has video of a PP Renesis on a dyno at Ma= zdatrix cranking out near 250HP @7500RPM. And he had the dyno sheet to prov= e it. Powersport claimed 210HP at 2700 prop RPM (their reduction ratio was = around 2.2; roughly 6000 engine RPM). I believe they also had dyno data to = prove it. I'm anxious to hear how Mark Stietle's PP 20B performs. Mike Wills From: Bill Bradburry Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 6:25 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning Mike, Don didn't report speed. I took his pitch and rpm and figured it. That sp= eed at cruise is what he would get with no slippage or "lift" from the prop= . Most of the folks with the Catto are actually getting higher speeds than= would be calculated which indicates that the prop is producing "lift", not= slippage. But his engine rpm with that big prop are higher than any I have seen. Wit= h the rotary, rpm =3D horsepower. If you aint making the rpm, you aint mak= ing the horsepower. It doesn't seem to matter what you have done to the en= gine...ported, PP, turbo, supercharger. If you look at the dyno charts tha= t are all over the web, you will see that torque is pretty flat after about= 4K, about 150 ft lbs. The horsepower is around 150 at 6K, maybe 180 at 7K= , and 200 at 7.5K. You can get more horsepower than that, but only if you = scream it up to 8K or 8.5K. All the charts I have seen are within 10 hors= epower of each other at all rpms. The difference in total horsepower is al= ways a higher max rpm. We all talk about wanting to cruise at 5800 and make 200 horsepower...it ai= nt happening! Not with the rotary. Bill B ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Mike Wills Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 1:17 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning Bill, I went back and looked at Don's previous post. Saw reference to climb perfo= rmance, RPMs, and temps, but no speed numbers. Has he previously reported c= ruise speeds over 200? Last post from him that I saw with any speed numbers= reported 174MPH IAS at 8000. If he's over 200 now, wow those are good numb= ers! Mike Wills From: Bill Bradburry Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:15 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning Those are the best numbers I have seen with anyone with a Renesis so far. = In fact, I have not heard of numbers that good on any 13B. Don is getting = over 200 MPH with a cruise prop and climbing at over 1400 fpm with it. The= only way he is going to do better is either with an electric CS prop and/o= r turbo. If he shaves the prop off to say, 74", he will get a couple hundr= ed more rpm, but will probably lose in total thrust. Diameter is a big det= erminer in thrust. I would like more pictures of Dons intake and exhaust! Bill B ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Al Gietzen Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:05 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning 1. When I read your stats in your first paragraph, the first thought that comes to mind is that there is too much prop. Ditto. Al G This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the a= ddressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauth= orized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message= in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal= records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you. --_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0E01794478C882EXVMBX0035e_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Been away on vacation for a two weeks … Mike, sign me = up too for the spreadsheet … maybe just post to the list.<= /span>

Jeff

 

From: Rotary m= otors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Schertz
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 9:03 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning

 

Mike,

I missed the Kitplanes article, if you co= uld forward the spread sheet, I would appreciate it.

 

Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser #4045
N343BS
Phase I testing

 

Bill,

 

 Agreed, speeds at 8,000 need to be calibrated. I d= oubt there's anyone here who has gone to the trouble of installing this eng= ine with all the associated electronics that doesn’t have a GPS. Its not a "dreaded calculation". The 4 course method of det= ermining TAS based on groundspeed is well established and very straightforw= ard. It was published in Kitplanes about a year ago and has been conve= rted into a simple Excel spread sheet. I can forward it to anyone who wants it if you cant find it yourself. It takes all the g= uesswork out and provides a meaningful number that is perhaps not absolute,= but accepted and used by the Navy Test Pilot School at Pax River, MD = among others.

 

Also agreed that within the RPM ranges we operate in the= re is a relatively linear HP response to RPM. The numbers you gave in your = initial email were, " horsepower is around 150 at 6K, maybe 180 at 7K, and 200 at 7.5K". I believe 250HP @ 7500 is with= in the range you mentioned - you stated 200 @7.5K. I'd be happy with a= n extra 50HP. 7500RPM is a good target number for max RPM straight and leve= l near sea level - even with a wood FP prop.

 

Mike Wills

 

From:<= /b> Bill Bradburry

Sent:<= /b> Thursday, March 25, 2010 7:28 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning

 

Hi Mike,

I am gonna have to let Don tell us his speeds, but h= e was at 8000 feet so indicated speed will have to go thru the dreaded calc= ulation as well in order to find the true airspeed..  :>) &nbs= p; since airplanes fly in the air and don’t touch the ground (except occasionally) every speed you see will be some kind of calc= ulation and not a “fact”.

Maybe he has a GPS and can fly some kind of rectangu= lar pattern and find the average (no wind) speed.???

 

Maybe you can get a copy of Paul’s dyno sheet = and take a look at the horsepower he was producing at the lower rpms I ment= ioned.  I will bet they are very close to the numbers I mentioned.&nbs= p; Mazda used to claim that the Renesis produced 250 @ 7500, but they have since backed it off to, I think, 238 @ maybe 8500.

 

The point I was trying to make about the rotary was = that your HP is based on rpm.  All those high HP numbers are all at re= ally high rpm.  Much higher than we run in the plane, unless, like Mar= k Steitle, you have a CS prop.

Mark gets (I think I saw him say) 7500 on takeoff an= d although I haven’t heard him say, I assume he can get the same in c= ruise as well.

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in ai= rcraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:37 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning

Sorry, not buying it Bill. If you are going to quote spe= eds here, quote speeds, not calculated speeds based on so many variables th= at the end result is meaningless. That sounds like something we'd see on the other list, not here. As far as I know, Don's best reporte= d speed is 174 IAS (and IAS is not all that meaningful either). Based = on performance that Don has actually reported his performance is rough= ly equivalent to mine (and I'm both prop and gearing limited). His performance may have improved since he reported= those numbers. In any case I'd prefer to stick to facts.<= /o:p>

 

Speaking of the other list, Paul has video of a PP = Renesis on a dyno  at Mazdatrix cranking out near 250HP @7500RPM. And = he had the dyno sheet to prove it. Powersport claimed 210HP at 2700 prop RPM (their reduction ratio was around 2.2; roughly 6000 engine R= PM). I believe they also had dyno data to prove it. I'm anxious to hear how= Mark Stietle's PP 20B performs.

 

Mike Wills

 

From:<= /b> Bill Bradburry

Sent:<= /b> Thursday, March 25, 2010 6:25 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning

 

Mike,

Don didn’t report speed.  I took his pitc= h and rpm and figured it.  That speed at cruise is what he would get w= ith no slippage or “lift” from the prop.  Most of the folk= s with the Catto are actually getting higher speeds than would be calculate= d which indicates that the prop is producing “lift”, not slippag= e. 

 

But his engine rpm with that big prop are higher tha= n any I have seen.  With the rotary, rpm =3D horsepower.  If you = aint making the rpm, you aint making the horsepower.  It doesn’t= seem to matter what you have done to the engine…ported, PP, turbo, supercharger.  If you look at the dyno charts that are all= over the web, you will see that torque is pretty flat after about 4K, abou= t 150 ft lbs.  The horsepower is around 150 at 6K, maybe 180 at 7K, an= d 200 at 7.5K.  You can get more horsepower than that, but only if you scream it up to 8K  or 8.5K.  All the= charts I have seen are within 10 horsepower of each other at all rpms.&nbs= p; The difference in total horsepower is always a higher max rpm.

 

We all talk about wanting to cruise at 5800 and make= 200 horsepower…it aint happening!  Not with the rotary.

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in ai= rcraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 1:17 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning

Bill,

 

I went back and looked at Don's previous post. Saw refer= ence to climb performance, RPMs, and temps, but no speed numbers. Has he pr= eviously reported cruise speeds over 200? Last post from him that I saw with any speed numbers reported 174MPH IAS at 8000. If= he's over 200 now, wow those are good numbers!

 

Mike Wills

 

From:<= /b> Bill Bradburry

Sent:<= /b> Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:15 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning

 

Those are the best numbers I have seen with anyone w= ith a Renesis so far.  In fact, I have not heard of numbers that good = on any 13B.  Don is getting over 200 MPH with a cruise prop and climbi= ng at over 1400 fpm with it.  The only way he is going to do better is either with an electric CS prop and/or turbo.&nbs= p; If he shaves the prop off to say, 74”, he will get a couple hundre= d more rpm, but will probably lose in total thrust.  Diameter is a big= determiner in thrust. 

 

I would like more pictures of Dons intake and exhaus= t!

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in ai= rcraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al Gietzen
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:05 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning

1. When I read your stats in your first paragraph= , the first thought that

comes to mind is that there is too much prop.&nbs= p;

 

Ditto.

 

Al G


This message, and the docum= ents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain pr= ivileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strict= ly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our = internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you.
 --_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0E01794478C882EXVMBX0035e_--