X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4179341 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 01:46:08 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (mail.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.34]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7B03173B35 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:45:27 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 9FB53BEC150 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:42:07 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: <347AA8E69BFB48B297E1D574111F670E@ownerf1fc517b8> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Turbo Considerations....careful, its long Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 15:42:06 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0043_01CACCFA.E39F7910" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 100325-1, 03/25/2010), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01CACCFA.E39F7910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Kelly, My notes suggest that Mistral uses a TO 4E-60, what ever that is. = Previous notes suggest the TO 4E -50, P-trim exhaust with modified 1.3 = AR. My notes say there's a newer S and R trim housings and I believe = Dave Leonard used a V-trim, at some stage. George ( down under) George, The "Turbonetic" website says that the turbine housing A/R ratio = can only=20 be guesstimated based on displacement, rpm, etc............To come up = with the optimum ratio for a given installation requires real world = testing...........Lucky for us several of this forum are flying turbos with varying sucess so = we can use their sucess and failures as a guide for our own = installations.......... I am with you as to the higher ratios (Looser)(.96 , 1.15 , 1.32) = at least for the TO4-E (which is what I am interested in) are probably ballpark = ratios for our 13B use based on their use by several of the group...........I = intend to=20 fly at the approximate altitude John Slade uses (about 12,000 ft) and = am interested in normalizing at altitude so do not need huge amounts of = power so the looser housing (1.15, 1.32) will probably be what I will = purchase...... I have a used TO4 with a 1.32 A/R housing so will probably purchase = a TO4-E , 50 , P trim , Big Shaft , Water Cooled , 1.15 Tangential = Housing like the "Cosy Girrrls" to avoid any chance of overspeed at the = altitudes that I plan on flying..............=20 -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from "George Lendich" = : --------------=20 =EF=BB=BF=20 Kelly, How do they calculate those AR figures. My notes say that the AR is = better for our application from 1.15 to 1.3. George ( down under) John and All, I am also looking seriously at the "Turbonetics" = TO4E..............Can you clear up something for me............The post below seems to indicate = that the "Cosy Girrls" have a .96 A/R turbine housing but from previous posts I thought = they had a 1.15 A/R housing for more boost at higher altitude............Also curious = if your turbine housing is split (two openings) or one opening ?.............You say that = on takeoff you are at about half throttle to stay at 42" mp.............Can you tell me = how much throttle you need at 12,000 ft to maintain 42" MP ?................... Thanks, -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from John Slade = : --------------=20 Hi Chris, I can provide one piece of second hand information and a lot of = sympathy.... With regard to the ceramic bearings, I was told that the extra = expense wasn't necessary, and that the 'big shaft' had been proved to = hold up on an aircraft, while no-one (he or I knew) had yet flown = ceramic bearings. On the sympathy side - I can relate to your agony here. After = blowing two stock turbos and one modified hybrid (one of which was at = 11,000' and took out my apex seals) I was, shall we say, under a little = more pressure to get the decision right this time. After studying turbo maps and specs and reading everything I = could find, I eventually took the same logic on the turbo choice that I = did on the engine rebuild and on aluminum welding - "this is something = you learn to be an expert in over many years, not months. I do not have = the time or tenacity to become a true expert in this field, and I don't = wish to employ the skills of an amateur (me) .... so I need to use the = skills of someone who IS a true expert." Next problem - how do you know = who is a true expert and who is just claiming to be one?=20 I came across a turbo guy on the http://canardaviation.com forum = (the initial communications should be in the archive) who was flying a = turbo powered Subaru and seemed like a true expert. I think he's in = Canada. He'd been "into turbos" all his life and certainly sounded like = he knew what he was talking about. I gave him all my specs in terms of = engine, planned flight regime and usage, and he came back with the list = of goodies I now have. As with all critical recommendations, I checked = with others whose knowledge I'd gained a healthy respect for. The Cozy = Girrrls had independently arrived at almost exactly the same choices, = except that they wanted more power at higher altitudes than me, so they = choose the 9.6 aspect ratio which would provide less on take-off, but = more over 18,000'. I had specified a max cruise altitude of 15,000'. = Greg Richter also used a Turbonetics, but without an auto wastegate. = Leon in Aussie (another true expert who used to contribute heavily to = this list) agreed that the specs and manufacturers were appropriate. At = that point I put all the agony behind me and purchased EXACTLY what I = was told would work. Thankfully (once I put the suction on the correct = side of the wastegate :) it did work and I've had no further turbo = issues. The push in your back on take-off feels like a Porche. I do the = take-off based on the manifold pressure keeping it below about 42 which = equates to just over half throttle. I think the late great Paul Conner = said it best after flying in Dan Crugar's 0360 powered Cozy IV, then = taking mine for a high speed taxi test. "Wooooo!"=20 You, of course, have an advantage over me - You can follow and = examine my installation. The cost of a commercial flight into West Palm = (or Albany after early May) would be minor compared to the value gained. = You'd be welcome any time. Regards, John -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01CACCFA.E39F7910 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
 Thanks Kelly,
My notes suggest that Mistral uses a TO = 4E-60, what=20 ever that is. Previous notes suggest the TO 4E -50, P-trim exhaust with = modified=20 1.3 AR. My notes say there's a newer S and R trim housings and I believe = Dave=20 Leonard used a V-trim, at some stage.
George ( down under)
George,
   The "Turbonetic" website  says that the turbine = housing=20 A/R ratio can only
be guesstimated based on displacement, rpm, etc............To = come up=20 with the
optimum ratio for a given installation requires real world=20 testing...........Lucky
for us several of this forum are flying turbos with varying = sucess so we=20 can
use their sucess and failures as a guide for our own=20 installations..........
 
   I am with you as to the higher ratios (Looser)(.96 , = 1.15 ,=20 1.32) at least for
the TO4-E (which is what I am interested in) are probably = ballpark=20 ratios
for our 13B use based on their use by several of the = group...........I=20 intend to
fly at the approximate altitude John Slade uses (about 12,000 ft) = and=20 am
interested in normalizing at altitude so do not need huge amounts = of=20 power
so the looser housing (1.15, 1.32) will probably be what I will=20 purchase......
 
  I have a used TO4 with a 1.32 A/R housing so will probably = purchase a
TO4-E , 50 , P trim , Big Shaft , Water Cooled , 1.15 Tangential=20 Housing
like the "Cosy Girrrls" to avoid any chance of overspeed at the = altitudes=20 that
I plan on flying.............. 
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20



 
--------------=20 Original message from "George Lendich" <lendich@aanet.com.au>: = --------------

=EF=BB=BF
 Kelly,
How do they calculate those AR = figures. My=20 notes say that the AR is better for our application from 1.15 to=20 1.3.
George ( down under)
John and All,
      I am also looking seriously at = the=20 "Turbonetics" TO4E..............Can you clear
up something for me............The post below seems to = indicate that=20 the "Cosy Girrls"
have a .96 A/R turbine housing but from previous posts I = thought they=20 had a 1.15 A/R
housing for more boost at higher altitude............Also = curious if=20 your turbine housing
is split (two openings) or one opening ?.............You say = that on=20 takeoff you are at
about half throttle to stay at 42" mp.............Can you = tell me how=20 much throttle you
need at 12,000 ft to maintain 42" MP = ?...................
 
Thanks,
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20



 
--------------=20 Original message from John Slade = <jslade@canardaviation.com>:=20 --------------

Hi Chris,
I can provide one piece of = second=20 hand information and a lot of sympathy....
With regard to the = ceramic=20 bearings, I was told that the extra expense wasn't necessary, = and that=20 the 'big shaft' had been proved to hold up on an aircraft, while = no-one=20 (he or I knew) had yet flown ceramic bearings.

On the = sympathy=20 side - I can relate to your  agony here.  After = blowing two=20 stock turbos and one modified hybrid (one of which was at = 11,000' and=20 took out my apex seals) I was, shall we say, under a little more = pressure to get the decision right this time.

After = studying=20 turbo maps and specs and reading everything I could find, I = eventually=20 took the same logic on the turbo choice that I did on the engine = rebuild=20 and on aluminum welding - "this is something you learn to be = an=20 expert in over many years, not months. I do not have the time or = tenacity to become a true expert in this field, and I don't wish = to=20 employ the skills of an amateur (me) .... so I need to use the = skills of=20 someone who IS a true expert." Next problem - how do you = know who is=20 a true expert and who is just claiming to be one?

I came = across=20 a turbo guy on the http://canardaviation.com forum=20 (the initial communications should be in the archive) who was = flying a=20 turbo powered Subaru and seemed like a true expert. I think he's = in=20 Canada. He'd been "into turbos" all his life and certainly = sounded like=20 he knew what he was talking about. I gave him all my specs in = terms of=20 engine, planned flight regime and usage, and he came back with = the list=20 of goodies I now have. As with all critical recommendations, I = checked=20 with others whose knowledge I'd gained a healthy respect for. = The Cozy=20 Girrrls had independently arrived at almost exactly the same = choices,=20 except that they wanted more power at higher altitudes than me, = so they=20 choose the 9.6 aspect ratio which would provide less on = take-off, but=20 more over 18,000'. I had specified a max cruise altitude of = 15,000'.=20 Greg Richter also used a Turbonetics, but without an auto = wastegate.=20 Leon in Aussie (another true expert who used to contribute = heavily to=20 this list) agreed that the specs and manufacturers were = appropriate. At=20 that point I put all the agony behind me and purchased EXACTLY = what I=20 was told would work. Thankfully (once I put the suction on the = correct=20 side of the wastegate :) it did work and I've had no further = turbo=20 issues. The push in your back on take-off feels like a Porche. I = do the=20 take-off based on the manifold pressure keeping it below about = 42 which=20 equates to just over half throttle.  I think the late great = Paul=20 Conner said it best after flying in Dan Crugar's 0360 powered = Cozy IV,=20 then taking mine for a high speed taxi test. "Wooooo!"=20

You, of course, have an advantage over me - You can = follow and=20 examine my installation. The cost of a commercial flight into = West Palm=20 (or Albany after early May) would be minor compared to the value = gained.=20 You'd be welcome any time.

Regards,
John

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