X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao107.cox.net ([68.230.241.39] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4179327 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 01:06:01 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.39; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo03.cox.net ([70.169.32.75]) by fed1rmmtao107.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100326050520.GQFM20722.fed1rmmtao107.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 01:05:20 -0400 Received: from willsPC ([68.105.86.80]) by fed1rmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id xh581d00M1k005Q04h5KSR; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 01:05:19 -0400 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=yjuDh3Ma92GrVaJxYD7gfORM7ilP1Knqouyx6SOEBcg= c=1 sm=1 a=XruvlouZCDbGUgEaRUiNZQ==:17 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=83jmWjf2vzt1uuoaygYA:9 a=kKPXRDZl2QcorhkOnkEA:7 a=LLraZFUuNMbzxUNqG7PldV5e-x0A:4 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=xZpSGGFa3aFyZxsg:21 a=SGzx2xYXbTY_WgZv:21 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=DpGh28N0HBTxnVuLSv4A:9 a=so1vLgub1843qITjWVIA:7 a=f9uSnh65uHARYAH17qvnACs0e6AA:4 a=iVkDmfvjeKcA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=pZusO39L7r4Bm8Fn:21 a=yll4MdztDkgLFuEA:21 a=XruvlouZCDbGUgEaRUiNZQ==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: TAS Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 22:05:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0037_01CACC67.3B492E70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01CACC67.3B492E70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's a handy feature. My RMI uEncoder does it also. Still need to do = the 4 course calc to calibrate the ASI though. Mike Wills From: Tracy Crook=20 Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:01 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: TAS Oooh, time for a sales pitch! A much under appreciated feature of the = EM2/3 is the TAS display that takes all the work out of calculating true = airspeed. It factors in all the parameters of density altitude = including temperature. I find it indispensable. Tracy =20 On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Mike Wills wrote: Bill, Agreed, speeds at 8,000 need to be calibrated. I doubt there's anyone = here who has gone to the trouble of installing this engine with all the = associated electronics that doesn=92t have a GPS. Its not a "dreaded = calculation". The 4 course method of determining TAS based on = groundspeed is well established and very straightforward. It was = published in Kitplanes about a year ago and has been converted into a = simple Excel spread sheet. I can forward it to anyone who wants it if = you cant find it yourself. It takes all the guesswork out and provides a = meaningful number that is perhaps not absolute, but accepted and used by = the Navy Test Pilot School at Pax River, MD among others. Also agreed that within the RPM ranges we operate in there is a = relatively linear HP response to RPM. The numbers you gave in your = initial email were, " horsepower is around 150 at 6K, maybe 180 at 7K, = and 200 at 7.5K". I believe 250HP @ 7500 is within the range you = mentioned - you stated 200 @7.5K. I'd be happy with an extra 50HP. = 7500RPM is a good target number for max RPM straight and level near sea = level - even with a wood FP prop. Mike Wills From: Bill Bradburry=20 Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 7:28 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning=20 Hi Mike, I am gonna have to let Don tell us his speeds, but he was at 8000 feet = so indicated speed will have to go thru the dreaded calculation as well = in order to find the true airspeed.. :>) since airplanes fly in the = air and don=92t touch the ground (except occasionally) every speed you = see will be some kind of calculation and not a =93fact=94. Maybe he has a GPS and can fly some kind of rectangular pattern and = find the average (no wind) speed.??? Maybe you can get a copy of Paul=92s dyno sheet and take a look at the = horsepower he was producing at the lower rpms I mentioned. I will bet = they are very close to the numbers I mentioned. Mazda used to claim = that the Renesis produced 250 @ 7500, but they have since backed it off = to, I think, 238 @ maybe 8500. The point I was trying to make about the rotary was that your HP is = based on rpm. All those high HP numbers are all at really high rpm. = Much higher than we run in the plane, unless, like Mark Steitle, you = have a CS prop. Mark gets (I think I saw him say) 7500 on takeoff and although I = haven=92t heard him say, I assume he can get the same in cruise as well. Bill B -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:37 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning=20 Sorry, not buying it Bill. If you are going to quote speeds here, = quote speeds, not calculated speeds based on so many variables that the = end result is meaningless. That sounds like something we'd see on the = other list, not here. As far as I know, Don's best reported speed is 174 = IAS (and IAS is not all that meaningful either). Based on performance = that Don has actually reported his performance is roughly equivalent to = mine (and I'm both prop and gearing limited). His performance may have = improved since he reported those numbers. In any case I'd prefer to = stick to facts. Speaking of the other list, Paul has video of a PP Renesis on a dyno = at Mazdatrix cranking out near 250HP @7500RPM. And he had the dyno sheet = to prove it. Powersport claimed 210HP at 2700 prop RPM (their reduction = ratio was around 2.2; roughly 6000 engine RPM). I believe they also had = dyno data to prove it. I'm anxious to hear how Mark Stietle's PP 20B = performs. Mike Wills From: Bill Bradburry=20 Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 6:25 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning=20 Mike, Don didn=92t report speed. I took his pitch and rpm and figured it. = That speed at cruise is what he would get with no slippage or =93lift=94 = from the prop. Most of the folks with the Catto are actually getting = higher speeds than would be calculated which indicates that the prop is = producing =93lift=94, not slippage.=20 But his engine rpm with that big prop are higher than any I have seen. = With the rotary, rpm =3D horsepower. If you aint making the rpm, you = aint making the horsepower. It doesn=92t seem to matter what you have = done to the engine=85ported, PP, turbo, supercharger. If you look at = the dyno charts that are all over the web, you will see that torque is = pretty flat after about 4K, about 150 ft lbs. The horsepower is around = 150 at 6K, maybe 180 at 7K, and 200 at 7.5K. You can get more = horsepower than that, but only if you scream it up to 8K or 8.5K. All = the charts I have seen are within 10 horsepower of each other at all = rpms. The difference in total horsepower is always a higher max rpm. We all talk about wanting to cruise at 5800 and make 200 = horsepower=85it aint happening! Not with the rotary. Bill B -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 1:17 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning=20 Bill, I went back and looked at Don's previous post. Saw reference to climb = performance, RPMs, and temps, but no speed numbers. Has he previously = reported cruise speeds over 200? Last post from him that I saw with any = speed numbers reported 174MPH IAS at 8000. If he's over 200 now, wow = those are good numbers! Mike Wills From: Bill Bradburry=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:15 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning=20 Those are the best numbers I have seen with anyone with a Renesis so = far. In fact, I have not heard of numbers that good on any 13B. Don is = getting over 200 MPH with a cruise prop and climbing at over 1400 fpm = with it. The only way he is going to do better is either with an = electric CS prop and/or turbo. If he shaves the prop off to say, 74=94, = he will get a couple hundred more rpm, but will probably lose in total = thrust. Diameter is a big determiner in thrust.=20 I would like more pictures of Dons intake and exhaust! Bill B -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Al Gietzen Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:05 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning=20 1. When I read your stats in your first paragraph, the first thought = that comes to mind is that there is too much prop. =20 Ditto. Al G ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01CACC67.3B492E70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That's a handy feature. My RMI uEncoder does = it also.=20 Still need to do the 4 course calc to calibrate the ASI = though.
 
Mike Wills

Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:01 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: TAS

Oooh, time for a sales pitch!   A much under=20 appreciated feature of the EM2/3 is the TAS display that takes all the = work out=20 of calculating true airspeed.  It factors in all the parameters of = density=20 altitude including temperature.   I find it=20 indispensable.

Tracy

 

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Mike Wills = <rv-4mike@cox.net>=20 wrote:
Bill,
 
 Agreed, speeds at 8,000 need to be = calibrated. I=20 doubt there's anyone here who has gone to the trouble of installing = this=20 engine with all the associated electronics that doesn=92t have a GPS. = Its not a=20 "dreaded calculation". The 4 course method of determining TAS = based on=20 groundspeed is well established and very straightforward. It was = published in=20 Kitplanes about a year ago and has been converted into a = simple=20 Excel spread sheet. I can forward it to anyone who wants it if you = cant find=20 it yourself. It takes all the guesswork out and provides a meaningful = number=20 that is perhaps not absolute, but accepted and used by the Navy = Test=20 Pilot School at Pax River, MD among others.
 
Also agreed that within the RPM ranges we = operate in=20 there is a relatively linear HP response to RPM. The numbers you gave = in your=20 initial email were, " horsepower = is around=20 150 at 6K, maybe 180 at 7K, and 200 at 7.5K". I believe 250HP @ 7500 = is within=20 the range you mentioned - you stated 200 @7.5K. I'd be happy with = an=20 extra 50HP. 7500RPM is a good target number for max RPM straight and = level=20 near sea level - even with a wood FP prop.
 
Mike Wills

Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 7:28 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning

Hi Mike,

I am gonna have to let Don tell us his = speeds, but he=20 was at 8000 feet so indicated speed will have to go thru the dreaded=20 calculation as well in order to find the true airspeed.. =20 :>)   since airplanes fly in the air and don=92t touch = the ground=20 (except occasionally) every speed you see will be some kind of = calculation and=20 not a =93fact=94.

Maybe he has a GPS and can fly some kind of=20 rectangular pattern and find the average (no wind) = speed.???

 

Maybe you can get a copy of Paul=92s dyno = sheet and take=20 a look at the horsepower he was producing at the lower rpms I = mentioned. =20 I will bet they are very close to the numbers I mentioned.  Mazda = used to=20 claim that the Renesis produced 250 @ 7500, but they have since backed = it off=20 to, I think, 238 @ maybe 8500.

 

The point I was trying to make about the = rotary was=20 that your HP is based on rpm.  All those high HP numbers are all = at=20 really high rpm.  Much higher than we run in the plane, unless, = like Mark=20 Steitle, you have a CS prop.

Mark gets (I think I saw him say) 7500 on = takeoff and=20 although I haven=92t heard him say, I assume he can get the same in = cruise as=20 well.

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike = Wills
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 = 9:37=20 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Turbo Planning

Sorry, not buying it = Bill. If=20 you are going to quote speeds here, quote speeds, not calculated = speeds based=20 on so many variables that the end result is meaningless. That sounds = like=20 something we'd see on the other list, not here. As far as I know, = Don's best=20 reported speed is 174 IAS (and IAS is not all that meaningful = either).=20 Based on performance that Don has actually reported his = performance is=20 roughly equivalent to mine (and I'm both prop and gearing limited). = His=20 performance may have improved since he reported those numbers. In = any=20 case I'd prefer to stick to facts.

 

Speaking of the other = list,=20 Paul has video of a PP Renesis on a dyno  at Mazdatrix = cranking out=20 near 250HP @7500RPM. And he had the dyno sheet to prove it. Powersport = claimed=20 210HP at 2700 prop RPM (their reduction ratio was around 2.2; roughly = 6000=20 engine RPM). I believe they also had dyno data to prove it. I'm = anxious=20 to hear how Mark Stietle's PP 20B performs.

 

Mike=20 Wills

 

From: Bill = Bradburry=20

Sent:=20 Thursday, March 25, 2010 6:25 AM

To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning

 

Mike,

Don didn=92t report speed.  I took his = pitch and=20 rpm and figured it.  That speed at cruise is what he would get = with no=20 slippage or =93lift=94 from the prop.  Most of the folks with the = Catto are=20 actually getting higher speeds than would be calculated which = indicates that=20 the prop is producing =93lift=94, not = slippage. 

 

But his engine rpm with that big prop are = higher than=20 any I have seen.  With the rotary, rpm =3D horsepower.  If = you aint=20 making the rpm, you aint making the horsepower.  It doesn=92t = seem to=20 matter what you have done to the engine=85ported, PP, turbo, = supercharger. =20 If you look at the dyno charts that are all over the web, you will see = that=20 torque is pretty flat after about 4K, about 150 ft lbs.  The = horsepower=20 is around 150 at 6K, maybe 180 at 7K, and 200 at 7.5K.  You can = get more=20 horsepower than that, but only if you scream it up to 8K  or = 8.5K. =20 All the charts I have seen are within 10 horsepower of each other at = all=20 rpms.  The difference in total horsepower is always a higher max=20 rpm.

 

We all talk about wanting to cruise at 5800 = and make=20 200 horsepower=85it aint happening!  Not with the = rotary.

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike = Wills
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 = 1:17=20 AM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Turbo Planning

Bill,

 

I went back and looked = at Don's=20 previous post. Saw reference to climb performance, RPMs, and temps, = but no=20 speed numbers. Has he previously reported cruise speeds over 200? Last = post=20 from him that I saw with any speed numbers reported 174MPH IAS at=20 8000. If he's over 200 now, wow those are good=20 numbers!

 

Mike=20 Wills

 

From: Bill Bradburry

Sent:=20 Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:15 PM

To: Rotary motors in aircraft

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning

 

Those are the best numbers I have seen with = anyone=20 with a Renesis so far.  In fact, I have not heard of numbers that = good on=20 any 13B.  Don is getting over 200 MPH with a cruise prop and = climbing at=20 over 1400 fpm with it.  The only way he is going to do better is = either=20 with an electric CS prop and/or turbo.  If he shaves the prop off = to say,=20 74=94, he will get a couple hundred more rpm, but will probably lose = in total=20 thrust.  Diameter is a big determiner in = thrust. 

 

I would like more pictures of Dons intake = and=20 exhaust!

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al = Gietzen
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 = 3:05=20 AM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Turbo Planning

1. = When I read your=20 stats in your first paragraph, the first thought = that

comes = to mind is=20 that there is too much prop. 

 

Ditto.

 

Al=20 G


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