X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-qy0-f204.google.com ([209.85.221.204] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4179299 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 00:02:17 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.204; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qyk42 with SMTP id 42so352266qyk.7 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 21:01:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:date :x-google-sender-auth:received:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=1WhkGWUmvyXLZ2qJf24LMbIqUlh5aBe87bu8JhbI0pc=; b=X8c0AF04cB29e+oubzkPC0vV3QnnWFJHe8WHB82hyw3t8yEt8WJTmjCILWrRpWDdEO LT3JUaqkQ25hwC390VPJB11OTNbdzxq+jari0nePkqCB9Vsz4tLu0IwuOHry4Na3GIsR Z4/iA95hvmyN46SeY8K8eI4LxhnD4Bm5b4+Ow= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; b=ULiYa567Q5/8pUk07KWNWFO5koQVvWs962bFXlc4FpBsteJwSXNnCgDNC8cIINwyK5 fZlDl1Y93Kz8PW0gnHAHrOlH2CRwZrcGS60QA0kSCz1sL0XISMsRApmPkA3/pGULUG3L szxYhmDRB3ve9KgqaRbPAvU51SpAj0yZyFl3g= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.60.211 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 21:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 00:01:41 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: f1814c40f6c72089 Received: by 10.224.97.26 with SMTP id j26mr119577qan.308.1269576101619; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 21:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1b4b137c1003252101r93a38d7qebc057d100614eda@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: TAS From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09fa21b3b8d6a8b0482ac3811 --00c09fa21b3b8d6a8b0482ac3811 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oooh, time for a sales pitch! A much under appreciated feature of the EM2/3 is the TAS display that takes all the work out of calculating true airspeed. It factors in all the parameters of density altitude including temperature. I find it indispensable. Tracy On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Mike Wills wrote: > Bill, > > Agreed, speeds at 8,000 need to be calibrated. I doubt there's anyone he= re > who has gone to the trouble of installing this engine with all the > associated electronics that doesn=92t have a GPS. Its not a "dreaded > calculation". The 4 course method of determining TAS based on groundspeed= is > well established and very straightforward. It was published in Kitplanes > about a year ago and has been converted into a simple Excel spread sheet.= I > can forward it to anyone who wants it if you cant find it yourself. It ta= kes > all the guesswork out and provides a meaningful number that is perhaps no= t > absolute, but accepted and used by the Navy Test Pilot School at Pax Rive= r, > MD among others. > > Also agreed that within the RPM ranges we operate in there is a relativel= y > linear HP response to RPM. The numbers you gave in your initial email wer= e, > " horsepower is around 150 at 6K, maybe 180 at 7K, and 200 at 7.5K". I > believe 250HP @ 7500 is within the range you mentioned - you stated 200 > @7.5K. I'd be happy with an extra 50HP. 7500RPM is a good target number f= or > max RPM straight and level near sea level - even with a wood FP prop. > > Mike Wills > > *From:* Bill Bradburry > *Sent:* Thursday, March 25, 2010 7:28 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning > > Hi Mike, > > I am gonna have to let Don tell us his speeds, but he was at 8000 feet so > indicated speed will have to go thru the dreaded calculation as well in > order to find the true airspeed.. :>) since airplanes fly in the air a= nd > don=92t touch the ground (except occasionally) every speed you see will b= e > some kind of calculation and not a =93fact=94. > > Maybe he has a GPS and can fly some kind of rectangular pattern and find > the average (no wind) speed.??? > > > > Maybe you can get a copy of Paul=92s dyno sheet and take a look at the > horsepower he was producing at the lower rpms I mentioned. I will bet th= ey > are very close to the numbers I mentioned. Mazda used to claim that the > Renesis produced 250 @ 7500, but they have since backed it off to, I thin= k, > 238 @ maybe 8500. > > > > The point I was trying to make about the rotary was that your HP is based > on rpm. All those high HP numbers are all at really high rpm. Much high= er > than we run in the plane, unless, like Mark Steitle, you have a CS prop. > > Mark gets (I think I saw him say) 7500 on takeoff and although I haven=92= t > heard him say, I assume he can get the same in cruise as well. > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mike Wills > *Sent:* Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:37 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning > > Sorry, not buying it Bill. If you are going to quote speeds here, quote > speeds, not calculated speeds based on so many variables that the end res= ult > is meaningless. That sounds like something we'd see on the other list, no= t > here. As far as I know, Don's best reported speed is 174 IAS (and IAS is = not > all that meaningful either). Based on performance that Don has actually > reported his performance is roughly equivalent to mine (and I'm both prop > and gearing limited). His performance may have improved since he reported > those numbers. In any case I'd prefer to stick to facts. > > > > Speaking of the other list, Paul has video of a PP Renesis on a dyno at > Mazdatrix cranking out near 250HP @7500RPM. And he had the dyno sheet to > prove it. Powersport claimed 210HP at 2700 prop RPM (their reduction rati= o > was around 2.2; roughly 6000 engine RPM). I believe they also had dyno da= ta > to prove it. I'm anxious to hear how Mark Stietle's PP 20B performs. > > > > Mike Wills > > > > *From:* Bill Bradburry > > *Sent:* Thursday, March 25, 2010 6:25 AM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning > > > > Mike, > > Don didn=92t report speed. I took his pitch and rpm and figured it. Tha= t > speed at cruise is what he would get with no slippage or =93lift=94 from = the > prop. Most of the folks with the Catto are actually getting higher speed= s > than would be calculated which indicates that the prop is producing =93li= ft=94, > not slippage. > > > > But his engine rpm with that big prop are higher than any I have seen. > With the rotary, rpm =3D horsepower. If you aint making the rpm, you ain= t > making the horsepower. It doesn=92t seem to matter what you have done to= the > engine=85ported, PP, turbo, supercharger. If you look at the dyno charts= that > are all over the web, you will see that torque is pretty flat after about > 4K, about 150 ft lbs. The horsepower is around 150 at 6K, maybe 180 at 7= K, > and 200 at 7.5K. You can get more horsepower than that, but only if you > scream it up to 8K or 8.5K. All the charts I have seen are within 10 > horsepower of each other at all rpms. The difference in total horsepower= is > always a higher max rpm. > > > > We all talk about wanting to cruise at 5800 and make 200 horsepower=85it = aint > happening! Not with the rotary. > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mike Wills > *Sent:* Thursday, March 25, 2010 1:17 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning > > Bill, > > > > I went back and looked at Don's previous post. Saw reference to climb > performance, RPMs, and temps, but no speed numbers. Has he previously > reported cruise speeds over 200? Last post from him that I saw with any > speed numbers reported 174MPH IAS at 8000. If he's over 200 now, wow thos= e > are good numbers! > > > > Mike Wills > > > > *From:* Bill Bradburry > > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:15 PM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning > > > > Those are the best numbers I have seen with anyone with a Renesis so far. > In fact, I have not heard of numbers that good on any 13B. Don is gettin= g > over 200 MPH with a cruise prop and climbing at over 1400 fpm with it. T= he > only way he is going to do better is either with an electric CS prop and/= or > turbo. If he shaves the prop off to say, 74=94, he will get a couple hun= dred > more rpm, but will probably lose in total thrust. Diameter is a big > determiner in thrust. > > > > I would like more pictures of Dons intake and exhaust! > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Al Gietzen > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:05 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning > > 1. When I read your stats in your first paragraph, the first thought that > > comes to mind is that there is too much prop. > > > > Ditto. > > > > Al G > --00c09fa21b3b8d6a8b0482ac3811 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oooh, time for a sales pitch!=A0=A0 A much under appreciated feature of the= EM2/3 is the TAS display that takes all the work out of calculating true a= irspeed.=A0 It factors in all the parameters of density altitude including = temperature. =A0 I find it indispensable.

Tracy

=A0

On Thu, Mar 25, 201= 0 at 11:11 PM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net> wrote:
Bill,
=A0
=A0Agreed, speeds at 8,000 need to be calibrate= d. I=20 doubt there's anyone here who has gone to the trouble of installing thi= s engine=20 with all the associated electronics that doesn=92t have a GPS. Its not a &q= uot;dreaded=20 calculation".=A0The 4 course method of determining TAS based on ground= speed=20 is well established and very straightforward. It was published in Kitplanes= =20 about a year ago and=A0has been converted into=A0a simple Excel spread=20 sheet. I can forward it to anyone who wants it if you cant find it yourself= . It=20 takes all the guesswork out and provides a meaningful number that is perhap= s not=20 absolute, but=A0accepted and used by the Navy Test Pilot School at Pax Rive= r,=20 MD among others.
=A0
Also agreed that within the RPM ranges we opera= te in=20 there is a relatively linear HP response to RPM. The numbers you gave in yo= ur=20 initial email were, " horsepower= is around=20 150 at 6K, maybe 180 at 7K, and 200 at 7.5K". I believe 250HP @ 7500 i= s within=20 the range you mentioned - you stated 200 @7.5K.=A0I'd be happy with an = extra=20 50HP. 7500RPM is a good target number for max RPM straight and level near s= ea=20 level - even with a wood FP prop.
=A0
Mike Wills

Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 7:28 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= /div>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning

Hi Mike,

I am gonna have to let Don tell us his speeds, but h= e=20 was at 8000 feet so indicated speed will have to go thru the dreaded calcul= ation=20 as well in order to find the true airspeed..=A0 :>)=A0=A0 since=20 airplanes fly in the air and don=92t touch the ground (except occasionally)= every=20 speed you see will be some kind of calculation and not a=20 =93fact=94.

Maybe he has a GPS and can fly some kind of rectangu= lar=20 pattern and find the average (no wind) speed.???

=A0

Maybe you can get a copy of Paul=92s dyno sheet and = take a=20 look at the horsepower he was producing at the lower rpms I mentioned.=A0 I= =20 will bet they are very close to the numbers I mentioned.=A0 Mazda used to= =20 claim that the Renesis produced 250 @ 7500, but they have since backed it o= ff=20 to, I think, 238 @ maybe 8500.

=A0

The point I was trying to make about the rotary was = that=20 your HP is based on rpm.=A0 All those high HP numbers are all at really hig= h=20 rpm.=A0 Much higher than we run in the plane, unless, like Mark Steitle, yo= u=20 have a CS prop.

Mark gets (I think I saw him say) 7500 on takeoff an= d=20 although I haven=92t heard him say, I assume he can get the same in cruise = as=20 well.

=A0

Bill B

=A0

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Mike Wills
Se= nt: Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:37=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in= aircraft
Subject: [Fly= Rotary] Re: Turbo Planning=20

Sorry, not buying it Bill. If you=20 are going to quote speeds here, quote speeds, not calculated speeds based o= n so=20 many variables that the end result is meaningless. That sounds like somethi= ng=20 we'd see on the other list, not here. As far as I know, Don's best = reported=20 speed is 174 IAS (and=A0IAS is not all that meaningful either). Based on=20 performance that Don has actually reported=A0his performance is roughly=20 equivalent to mine (and I'm both prop and gearing limited). His perform= ance=20 may=A0have improved since he reported those numbers. In any case=A0I'd= =20 prefer to stick to facts.

=A0

Speaking of the other list,=20 Paul=A0has video of a PP Renesis on a dyno=A0 at Mazdatrix cranking out=20 near 250HP @7500RPM. And he had the dyno sheet to prove it. Powersport clai= med=20 210HP at 2700 prop RPM (their reduction ratio was around 2.2; roughly 6000= =20 engine=A0RPM). I believe they also had dyno data to prove it. I'm anxio= us to=20 hear how Mark Stietle's PP 20B performs.

=A0

Mike=20 Wills

=A0

From:Bill Bradburry=20

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning

=A0

Mike,

Don didn=92t report speed.=A0 I took his pitch and r= pm=20 and figured it.=A0 That speed at cruise is what he would get with no slippa= ge=20 or =93lift=94 from the prop.=A0 Most of the folks with the Catto are actual= ly=20 getting higher speeds than would be calculated which indicates that the pro= p is=20 producing =93lift=94, not slippage.=A0

=A0

But his engine rpm with that big prop are higher tha= n=20 any I have seen.=A0 With the rotary, rpm =3D horsepower.=A0 If you aint=20 making the rpm, you aint making the horsepower.=A0 It doesn=92t seem to mat= ter=20 what you have done to the engine=85ported, PP, turbo, supercharger.=A0 If y= ou=20 look at the dyno charts that are all over the web, you will see that torque= is=20 pretty flat after about 4K, about 150 ft lbs.=A0 The horsepower is around 1= 50=20 at 6K, maybe 180 at 7K, and 200 at 7.5K.=A0 You can get more horsepower tha= n=20 that, but only if you scream it up to 8K=A0 or 8.5K.=A0 All the charts I=20 have seen are within 10 horsepower of each other at all rpms.=A0 The=20 difference in total horsepower is always a higher max=20 rpm.

=A0

We all talk about wanting to cruise at 5800 and make= 200=20 horsepower=85it aint happening!=A0 Not with the=20 rotary.

=A0

Bill B

=A0

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Mike Wills
Se= nt: Thursday, March 25, 2010 1:17=20 AM
To: Rotary motors in= aircraft
Subject: [Fly= Rotary] Re: Turbo Planning=20

Bill,

=A0

I went back and looked at Don's=20 previous post. Saw reference to climb performance, RPMs, and temps, but no = speed=20 numbers. Has he previously reported cruise speeds over 200? Last post from = him=20 that I saw with any speed numbers reported 174MPH IAS at 8000.=A0If he'= s over=20 200 now, wow those are good numbers!

=A0

Mike=20 Wills

=A0

From:Bill=20 Bradburry

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning

=A0

Those are the best numbers I have seen with anyone w= ith=20 a Renesis so far.=A0 In fact, I have not heard of numbers that good on any= =20 13B.=A0 Don is getting over 200 MPH with a cruise prop and climbing at over= =20 1400 fpm with it.=A0 The only way he is going to do better is either with a= n=20 electric CS prop and/or turbo.=A0 If he shaves the prop off to say, 74=94, = he=20 will get a couple hundred more rpm, but will probably lose in total=20 thrust.=A0 Diameter is a big determiner in=20 thrust.=A0

=A0

I would like more pictures of Dons intake and=20 exhaust!

=A0

Bill B

=A0

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Al Gietzen
Se= nt: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:05=20 AM
To: Rotary motors in= aircraft
Subject: [Fly= Rotary] Re: Turbo Planning=20

1.=20 When I read your stats in your first paragraph, the first thought=20 that

comes = to mind is that there is too much prop.=A0=20

=A0

Ditto.

=A0

Al=20 G


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