X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4178932 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:46:55 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (mail.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.34]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C15D1736E0 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 05:46:13 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 8C2C6BEC009 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2010 05:46:07 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Turbo Considerations....careful, its long Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 07:46:06 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005F_01CACCB8.64657560" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 100325-1, 03/25/2010), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01CACCB8.64657560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly, How do they calculate those AR figures. My notes say that the AR is = better for our application from 1.15 to 1.3. George ( down under) John and All, I am also looking seriously at the "Turbonetics" = TO4E..............Can you clear up something for me............The post below seems to indicate that = the "Cosy Girrls" have a .96 A/R turbine housing but from previous posts I thought they = had a 1.15 A/R housing for more boost at higher altitude............Also curious if = your turbine housing is split (two openings) or one opening ?.............You say that on = takeoff you are at about half throttle to stay at 42" mp.............Can you tell me how = much throttle you need at 12,000 ft to maintain 42" MP ?................... Thanks, -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from John Slade = : --------------=20 Hi Chris, I can provide one piece of second hand information and a lot of = sympathy.... With regard to the ceramic bearings, I was told that the extra = expense wasn't necessary, and that the 'big shaft' had been proved to = hold up on an aircraft, while no-one (he or I knew) had yet flown = ceramic bearings. On the sympathy side - I can relate to your agony here. After = blowing two stock turbos and one modified hybrid (one of which was at = 11,000' and took out my apex seals) I was, shall we say, under a little = more pressure to get the decision right this time. After studying turbo maps and specs and reading everything I could = find, I eventually took the same logic on the turbo choice that I did on = the engine rebuild and on aluminum welding - "this is something you = learn to be an expert in over many years, not months. I do not have the = time or tenacity to become a true expert in this field, and I don't wish = to employ the skills of an amateur (me) .... so I need to use the skills = of someone who IS a true expert." Next problem - how do you know who is = a true expert and who is just claiming to be one?=20 I came across a turbo guy on the http://canardaviation.com forum = (the initial communications should be in the archive) who was flying a = turbo powered Subaru and seemed like a true expert. I think he's in = Canada. He'd been "into turbos" all his life and certainly sounded like = he knew what he was talking about. I gave him all my specs in terms of = engine, planned flight regime and usage, and he came back with the list = of goodies I now have. As with all critical recommendations, I checked = with others whose knowledge I'd gained a healthy respect for. The Cozy = Girrrls had independently arrived at almost exactly the same choices, = except that they wanted more power at higher altitudes than me, so they = choose the 9.6 aspect ratio which would provide less on take-off, but = more over 18,000'. I had specified a max cruise altitude of 15,000'. = Greg Richter also used a Turbonetics, but without an auto wastegate. = Leon in Aussie (another true expert who used to contribute heavily to = this list) agreed that the specs and manufacturers were appropriate. At = that point I put all the agony behind me and purchased EXACTLY what I = was told would work. Thankfully (once I put the suction on the correct = side of the wastegate :) it did work and I've had no further turbo = issues. The push in your back on take-off feels like a Porche. I do the = take-off based on the manifold pressure keeping it below about 42 which = equates to just over half throttle. I think the late great Paul Conner = said it best after flying in Dan Crugar's 0360 powered Cozy IV, then = taking mine for a high speed taxi test. "Wooooo!"=20 You, of course, have an advantage over me - You can follow and = examine my installation. The cost of a commercial flight into West Palm = (or Albany after early May) would be minor compared to the value gained. = You'd be welcome any time. Regards, John -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01CACCB8.64657560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
 Kelly,
How do they calculate those AR figures. = My notes=20 say that the AR is better for our application from 1.15 to = 1.3.
George ( down under)
John and All,
      I am also looking seriously at the = "Turbonetics" TO4E..............Can you clear
up something for me............The post below seems to indicate = that the=20 "Cosy Girrls"
have a .96 A/R turbine housing but from previous posts I thought = they had=20 a 1.15 A/R
housing for more boost at higher altitude............Also curious = if your=20 turbine housing
is split (two openings) or one opening ?.............You say that = on=20 takeoff you are at
about half throttle to stay at 42" mp.............Can you tell me = how=20 much throttle you
need at 12,000 ft to maintain 42" MP ?...................
 
Thanks,
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20



 
--------------=20 Original message from John Slade <jslade@canardaviation.com>:=20 --------------

Hi Chris,
I can provide one piece of = second hand=20 information and a lot of sympathy....
With regard to the ceramic=20 bearings, I was told that the extra expense wasn't necessary, and = that the=20 'big shaft' had been proved to hold up on an aircraft, while no-one = (he or I=20 knew) had yet flown ceramic bearings.

On the sympathy side - = I can=20 relate to your  agony here.  After blowing two stock = turbos and=20 one modified hybrid (one of which was at 11,000' and took out my = apex seals)=20 I was, shall we say, under a little more pressure to get the = decision right=20 this time.

After studying turbo maps and specs and reading = everything=20 I could find, I eventually took the same logic on the turbo choice = that I=20 did on the engine rebuild and on aluminum welding - "this is = something=20 you learn to be an expert in over many years, not months. I do not = have the=20 time or tenacity to become a true expert in this field, and I don't = wish to=20 employ the skills of an amateur (me) .... so I need to use the = skills of=20 someone who IS a true expert." Next problem - how do you know = who is a=20 true expert and who is just claiming to be one?

I came = across a=20 turbo guy on the http://canardaviation.com = forum (the=20 initial communications should be in the archive) who was flying a = turbo=20 powered Subaru and seemed like a true expert. I think he's in = Canada. He'd=20 been "into turbos" all his life and certainly sounded like he knew = what he=20 was talking about. I gave him all my specs in terms of engine, = planned=20 flight regime and usage, and he came back with the list of goodies I = now=20 have. As with all critical recommendations, I checked with others = whose=20 knowledge I'd gained a healthy respect for. The Cozy Girrrls had=20 independently arrived at almost exactly the same choices, except = that they=20 wanted more power at higher altitudes than me, so they choose the = 9.6 aspect=20 ratio which would provide less on take-off, but more over 18,000'. I = had=20 specified a max cruise altitude of 15,000'. Greg Richter also used a = Turbonetics, but without an auto wastegate. Leon in Aussie (another = true=20 expert who used to contribute heavily to this list) agreed that the = specs=20 and manufacturers were appropriate. At that point I put all the = agony behind=20 me and purchased EXACTLY what I was told would work. Thankfully = (once I put=20 the suction on the correct side of the wastegate :) it did work and = I've had=20 no further turbo issues. The push in your back on take-off feels = like a=20 Porche. I do the take-off based on the manifold pressure keeping it = below=20 about 42 which equates to just over half throttle.  I think the = late=20 great Paul Conner said it best after flying in Dan Crugar's 0360 = powered=20 Cozy IV, then taking mine for a high speed taxi test. = "Wooooo!"=20

You, of course, have an advantage over me - You can follow = and=20 examine my installation. The cost of a commercial flight into West = Palm (or=20 Albany after early May) would be minor compared to the value gained. = You'd=20 be welcome any time.

Regards,
John

--

Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/

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