X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost02.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4178640 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:32:00 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.52; envelope-from=keltro@att.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; q=dns/txt; d=att.net; s=dkim01; i=keltro@att.net; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1269541921; h=Content-Type: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; bh=aPHF5P dKIRjU79hC76hJbUfLEMw25/7lDitcE8FPcGQ=; b=kDuhhVj3WEjuofHl9nOPn6Btv mB10NHagTwuDry/fWzjKxXkXiIgYLdxVyKjmMwWsn4fTDpvapOL0mOfHuYxww== Received: from fwebmail33.isp.att.net ([204.127.221.133]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc02) with SMTP id <20100325183124H0200ksqm7e>; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:31:25 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [204.127.221.133] Received: from [208.114.43.83] by fwebmail33.isp.att.net; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:31:24 +0000 From: "Kelly Troyer" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Turbo Considerations....careful, its long Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:31:24 +0000 Message-Id: <032520101831.29619.4BABABFC0005FB6D000073B322243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF019D9B040A05@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 2 2009) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_29619_1269541884_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_29619_1269541884_0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, The turbine housings (with some A/R ratios) are available with either a= n open inlet (from exhaust manifold) or a split (2) inlet (also called "twi= n scroll) inlet........... -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from John Slade = : --------------=20 By the way, in case it helps, I believe I was at around 6400 rpm during tha= t high-speed run. I remember noting that the engine seemed to hit a sweet s= pot at about 6300. Vibrations (those that there are) seemed to reduce and t= here seemed to be a bit of a surge in power. Regards, John John Slade wrote:=20 Hi Kelly, > seems to indicate that the "Cosy Girrls" have a .96 A/R turbine housing I typed that wrong. I have 0.96. The Cozy Girrrls have 1.15. An aspect rati= o of 9.6 would be probably only work in space :) This gives me a little more at low level, and a little less at high altitud= es than the Girrrls. As I understand it, mine would be closer to overspeedi= ng under positive boost over 18k feet.=20 >Also curious if your turbine housing is split (two openings) or one openin= g=20 Hmmm. Not sure what you mean. It has openings at both ends :) You can see a picture of the turbo here: http://canardaviation.com/cozy/cha= p29h.htm scroll down to "T04 Turbo trial fitting"; >Can you tell me how much throttle you need at 12,000 ft to maintain 42" MP= ? I think I was at about 3/4 throttle, but I'm not sure if more throttle woul= d have got me more boost.=20 I only did that once. I reached the Cozy IV recommended VNE of 190kts IAS (= about 63F OAT) straight & level and decided that was enough. Regards, John Kelly Troyer wrote:=20 John and All, l I am also looking seriously at the "Turbonetics" TO4E..............C= an you clear up something for me............The post below seems to indicate that the "C= osy Girrls" have a .96 A/R turbine housing but from previous posts I thought they had a= 1.15 A/R housing for more boost at higher altitude............Also curious if your t= urbine housing is split (two openings) or one opening ?.............You say that on takeof= f you are at about half throttle to stay at 42" mp.............Can you tell me how much = throttle you need at 12,000 ft to maintain 42" MP ?................... Thanks, -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from John Slade = : --------------=20 Hi Chris, I can provide one piece of second hand information and a lot of sympathy...= . With regard to the ceramic bearings, I was told that the extra expense wasn= 't necessary, and that the 'big shaft' had been proved to hold up on an air= craft, while no-one (he or I knew) had yet flown ceramic bearings. On the sympathy side - I can relate to your agony here. After blowing two= stock turbos and one modified hybrid (one of which was at 11,000' and took= out my apex seals) I was, shall we say, under a little more pressure to ge= t the decision right this time. After studying turbo maps and specs and reading everything I could find, I = eventually took the same logic on the turbo choice that I did on the engine= rebuild and on aluminum welding - "this is something you learn to be an ex= pert in over many years, not months. I do not have the time or tenacity to = become a true expert in this field, and I don't wish to employ the skills o= f an amateur (me) .... so I need to use the skills of someone who IS a true= expert." Next problem - how do you know who is a true expert and who is ju= st claiming to be one?=20 I came across a turbo guy on the http://canardaviation.com forum (the initi= al communications should be in the archive) who was flying a turbo powered = Subaru and seemed like a true expert. I think he's in Canada. He'd been "in= to turbos" all his life and certainly sounded like he knew what he was talk= ing about. I gave him all my specs in terms of engine, planned flight regim= e and usage, and he came back with the list of goodies I now have. As with = all critical recommendations, I checked with others whose knowledge I'd gai= ned a healthy respect for. The Cozy Girrrls had independently arrived at al= most exactly the same choices, except that they wanted more power at higher= altitudes than me, so they choose the 9.6 aspect ratio which would provide= less on take-off, but more over 18,000'. I had specified a max cruise alti= tude of 15,000'. Greg Richter also used a Turbonetics, but without an auto = wastegate. Leon in Aussie (another true expert who used to contribute heavi= ly to this list) agreed that the specs and manufacturers were appropriate. = At that point I put all the agony behind me and purchased EXACTLY what I wa= s told would work. Thankfully (once I put the suction on the correct side o= f the wastegate :) it did work and I've had no further turbo issues. The pu= sh in your back on take-off feels like a Porche. I do the take-off based on= the manifold pressure keeping it below about 42 which equates to just over= half throttle. I think the late great Paul Conner said it best after flyi= ng in Dan Crugar's 0360 powered Cozy IV, then taking mine for a high speed = taxi test. "Wooooo!"=20 You, of course, have an advantage over me - You can follow and examine my i= nstallation. The cost of a commercial flight into West Palm (or Albany afte= r early May) would be minor compared to the value gained. You'd be welcome = any time. Regards, John -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_29619_1269541884_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_29619_1269541884_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_29619_1269541884_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,
   The turbine housings (with some A/R ratios)  are ava= ilable with either an open inlet (from exhaust manifold) or a split (2)&nbs= p;inlet (also called "twin scroll) inlet...........
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d



 
-------------- Original message from John Slade <jslade@c= anardaviation.com>: --------------

By the way, in case it helps,= I believe I was at around 6400 rpm during that high-speed run. I remember = noting that the engine seemed to hit a sweet spot at about 6300. Vibrations= (those that there are) seemed to reduce and there seemed to be a bit of a = surge in power.
Regards,
John

John Slade wrote:=20
Hi Kelly,
>= ; seems to indicate that the "Cosy Girrls" have a .96 A/R turbine housingI typed that wrong. I have 0.96. The Cozy Girrrls have 1.15. An aspect ra= tio of 9.6 would be probably only work in space :)
This gives me a littl= e more at low level, and a little less at high altitudes than the Girrrls. = As I understand it, mine would be closer to overspeeding under positive boo= st over 18k feet.

>Also curious if your turbine housing is split= (two openings) or one opening
Hmmm. Not sure what you mean. It has ope= nings at both ends :)
You can see a picture of the turbo here: http://canardaviation.com/cozy/chap29h.htm scroll down to "T04 Turbo = trial fitting";

>Can you tell me how much throttle you need at 12= ,000 ft to maintain 42" MP ?
I think I was at about 3/4 throttle, but I'= m not sure if more throttle would have got me more boost.
I only did th= at once. I reached the Cozy IV recommended VNE of 190kts IAS (about 63F OAT= ) straight & level and decided that was enough.

Regards,
John=

Kelly Troyer wrote:=20
John and All,
l      I am also looking seriously at the "Tu= rbonetics" TO4E..............Can you clear
up something for me............The post below seems to indicate that t= he "Cosy Girrls"
have a .96 A/R turbine housing but from previous posts I thought they = had a 1.15 A/R
housing for more boost at higher altitude............Also curious if y= our turbine housing
is split (two openings) or one opening ?.............You say that on t= akeoff you are at
about half throttle to stay at 42" mp.............Can you tell me how = much throttle you
need at 12,000 ft to maintain 42" MP ?...................
 
Thanks,
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d



 
-------------- Original message from John Slade <j= slade@canardaviation.com>: --------------

Hi Chris,
I can= provide one piece of second hand information and a lot of sympathy....
= With regard to the ceramic bearings, I was told that the extra expense wasn= 't necessary, and that the 'big shaft' had been proved to hold up on an air= craft, while no-one (he or I knew) had yet flown ceramic bearings.

O= n the sympathy side - I can relate to your  agony here.  After bl= owing two stock turbos and one modified hybrid (one of which was at 11,000'= and took out my apex seals) I was, shall we say, under a little more press= ure to get the decision right this time.

After studying turbo maps a= nd specs and reading everything I could find, I eventually took the same lo= gic on the turbo choice that I did on the engine rebuild and on aluminum we= lding - "this is something you learn to be an expert in over many years,= not months. I do not have the time or tenacity to become a true expert in = this field, and I don't wish to employ the skills of an amateur (me) .... s= o I need to use the skills of someone who IS a true expert." Next probl= em - how do you know who is a true expert and who is just claiming to be on= e?

I came across a turbo guy on the http://canardaviation.com forum (= the initial communications should be in the archive) who was flying a turbo= powered Subaru and seemed like a true expert. I think he's in Canada. He'd= been "into turbos" all his life and certainly sounded like he knew what he= was talking about. I gave him all my specs in terms of engine, planned fli= ght regime and usage, and he came back with the list of goodies I now have.= As with all critical recommendations, I checked with others whose knowledg= e I'd gained a healthy respect for. The Cozy Girrrls had independently arri= ved at almost exactly the same choices, except that they wanted more power = at higher altitudes than me, so they choose the 9.6 aspect ratio which woul= d provide less on take-off, but more over 18,000'. I had specified a max cr= uise altitude of 15,000'. Greg Richter also used a Turbonetics, but without= an auto wastegate. Leon in Aussie (another true expert who used to contrib= ute heavily to this list) agreed that the specs and manufacturers were appr= opriate. At that point I put all the agony behind me and purchased EXACTLY = what I was told would work. Thankfully (once I put the suction on the corre= ct side of the wastegate :) it did work and I've had no further turbo issue= s. The push in your back on take-off feels like a Porche. I do the take-off= based on the manifold pressure keeping it below about 42 which equates to = just over half throttle.  I think the late great Paul Conner said it b= est after flying in Dan Crugar's 0360 powered Cozy IV, then taking mine for= a high speed taxi test. "Wooooo!"

You, of course, have an a= dvantage over me - You can follow and examine my installation. The cost of = a commercial flight into West Palm (or Albany after early May) would be min= or compared to the value gained. You'd be welcome any time.

Regards,=
John

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Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/

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Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/

Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.ne=
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Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/

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