X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao101.cox.net ([68.230.241.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4169753 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:20:33 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.45; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100318021958.IKWA4995.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:19:58 -0400 Received: from willsPC ([68.105.86.80]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id uSKy1d0041k005Q04SKy7U; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:19:58 -0400 X-VR-Score: -30.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=KqzZVGv1/pIBe+XbL3gCBfL8vaFXECOST7Bs1vfp5Gs= c=1 sm=1 a=gHSMhjeKyj8A:10 a=XruvlouZCDbGUgEaRUiNZQ==:17 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=ekHE3smAAAAA:20 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=nUuTZ29dAAAA:8 a=0_keHS6434LNd4eSSLoA:9 a=zB1ijegjwgAYj8LolaQA:7 a=ybDobYBpt1nMqktJb_lSgw36_i8A:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=1vhyWl4Y8LcA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=gqcFqBaLaoNFC-Mp:21 a=9Av2V1F9b1krLDtA:21 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=y1VbJJIvXHmIlYr8_2cA:9 a=CJ0HPpqRlWeqNyW9iv8A:7 a=iK1TUAd1MpC3Kk0erhJnKvV8LhIA:4 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=Mqm05uWo5cEr2HYF:21 a=YchWAWvGyBUMmVYF:21 a=XruvlouZCDbGUgEaRUiNZQ==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <14EA473459D8455D920E5ECB9689EB3F@willsPC> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector Select Switch [FlyRotary] Re: Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:19:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A5_01CAC606.D4659150" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01CAC606.D4659150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed, I never assumed you were trying to persuade me. Nor I you. The bottom = line is each of us weighed the pros and cons, came to different = conclusions, and acted accordingly. One of the joys of Experimental = aviation. I just hope that neither of us is proven to have made the = wrong choice at some point down the road. Mike=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:25 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector Select Switch [FlyRotary] Re: Civil = Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... Hi Mike, =20 Was not trying to get you to change your wiring, just providing my = viewpoint on my preference. As I said - having the switches brings some = down side such as possible component failure (switches), miswiring = causing trouble shooting and head scratching, etc. =20 =20 Yes, I once had an injector fail to open (turned out to have developed = an open coil) in flight - at the time of flight was not certain what the = problem was but found that by switching off the affected pair made the = engine run smoother and EGT even out. Could undoubtedly have made it = home without doing that in this case, but it was nice to isolate the = problem and come home with a smooth running engine. =20 Early on I discovered that some of the injectors I was trying out on the = ground - were bad (coil OK with Ohm meter check) but just wouldn't = inject fuel, the switches make it much easier to isolate which pair and = then which injector was the bad 0ne. If you don't have a bunch of old = injectors to check then this does provide any benefit. =20 Yes, you can always pull the electrical connector on the injectors, but = with my primary injectors in the block behind my intake manifold - it is = not an easy job. Switches make it easier. =20 No fuses, but I do have Circuit Breakers in those lines, so you are = correct - a shorted wire should cause no ultimate problem that the = popping circuit breaker wouldn't take care of. =20 Agree, you can kill the engine any number of ways. However, early on = the EC2 had a sneak circuit that provided sufficient power through the = injector power wires to the old EC2 (long ago corrected) to continue to = power it. So you can imagine my surprise after I first installed the = EC2 and turn off the power to it a (but not the injectors) - the engine = continued to run. So not knowing what was going on , I killed the = engine using my injector switches and found I like the way that brought = the engine to an immediate stop. =20 Yes, you can turn off the fuel pump but there is still pressurized fuel = in there for a moment or two that can continue to inject into your = engine until the pressure drops down. You can turn of the ignition and = ditto. Again no biggie, but I like the way the engine stops when the = injectors are turned off - there is No wind down, the engine stops = producing power immediately. =20 Again, was as not trying to get you to change your wiring, just = providing my viewpoint on my preference . =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:22 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector Select Switch [FlyRotary] Re: Civil = Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... =20 Ed, =20 1) Have you ever had an injector failure that required this? 2) There were a number of occasions during initial debug when it was = helpful to disable injector pairs. It was easy enough to do this by = pulling power where they were plugged into the essential bus. Not as = convenient as flipping a switch, but I don't anticipate having to mess = with it ever again. 3) Are your supply lines to your injectors fused? If not, why not? If = they do short in flight how do you know to turn off the switches? 4) I turn off the fuel pump to kill the engine. I suppose this does = leave a possibility of a little fuel in the chamber? Not sure there is = any reason for concern? =20 Mike Wills=20 =20 From: Ed Anderson=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:30 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Injector Select Switch [FlyRotary] Re: Civil = Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... =20 I also find the "Injector Select" switches useful for several purposes, = Rino.=20 =20 1. If a problem with one injector of a pair occurs, I can turn that = pair off and fly home on the remaining pair. 2. They are great for trouble shooting injector problems by permitting = you to choose which pair will be on without question.=20 3. In the highly unlikely (but possible) event that a power wire to a = pair should short to ground, you can turn the power off to that pair. =20 4. I also use them to turn off the engine - that ensures no residue fuel = in the housings. =20 But, if not wired correctly they can cause a new installation some = puzzling problems {:>) and they do add another component and we know = components can fail - although if sized properly for the correct current = and installing quality switches and wire correct the failure in one will = not take you down and the likelihood of both failing at the same time is = rather remote. =20 But, once again, you can certainly fly without them - I just find them = very useful. =20 My 0.02 =20 Ed=20 =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Rino Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:05 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... =20 I find the "injector failure Switches" convenient during the warmup to = test the operation of the injectors just like the primary and seconday = plugs test. =20 Rino Lacombe =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Wills=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:23 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: = Ut-Oh... =20 I chose not to implement the "injector failure switches". I don't know = if there are any statistics on it, but I suspect injector failure is an = extremely rare occurrence. On the other hand if one did fail I'd rather = fly the plane and troubleshoot the problem after I'm on the ground. But = that's part of the advantage in going the Experimental route - build it = the way you want it. =20 Mike Wills=20 =20 From: Bktrub@aol.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:47 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: = Ut-Oh... =20 In the event of a primary or secondary injector failure, the affected = injector set can be switched off and the cold start switch used to = richen up the remaining injectors. This as per Tracy's instructions. I = haven't tried this, and hope I never have to in the heat of battle, but = there it is.=20 =20 Brian Trubee __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01CAC606.D4659150 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ed,
 
I never assumed you were trying to persuade = me.=20 Nor I you. The bottom line is each of us weighed the pros and cons, = came to=20 different conclusions, and acted accordingly. One of the joys of = Experimental=20 aviation. I just hope that neither of us is proven to have made the = wrong choice=20 at some point down the road.
 
Mike 

Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:25 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector Select Switch [FlyRotary] = Re:=20 Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...

Hi=20 Mike,

 

Was not = trying to get=20 you to change your wiring, just providing my viewpoint on my = preference. =20 As I said - having the switches brings some down side such as possible = component=20 failure (switches), miswiring causing trouble shooting and head = scratching,=20 etc.

 

 

Yes, I once = had an=20 injector fail to open (turned out to have developed  an open coil) = in=20 flight =96 at the time of flight was not certain what the problem was = but found=20 that by switching off the affected pair made the engine run smoother and = EGT=20 even out.  Could undoubtedly have made it home without doing that = in this=20 case, but it was nice to isolate the problem and come home with a smooth = running=20 engine.

 

Early on I = discovered=20 that some of the injectors I was trying out on the ground =96 were bad = (coil OK=20 with Ohm meter check) but just wouldn=92t inject fuel, the switches make = it much=20 easier to isolate which pair and then which injector was the bad = 0ne.  If=20 you don=92t have a bunch of old injectors to check then this does = provide any=20 benefit.

 

Yes, you can = always=20 pull the electrical connector on the injectors, but with my primary = injectors in=20 the block behind my intake manifold =96 it is not an easy job.  = Switches make=20 it easier.

 

No fuses, but = I do have=20 Circuit Breakers in those lines, so you are correct - a shorted wire = should=20 cause no ultimate problem that the popping circuit breaker wouldn=92t = take care=20 of.

 

Agree, you = can kill the=20 engine any number of ways.  However, early on the EC2 had a sneak = circuit=20 that provided sufficient power through the injector power wires to the = old EC2=20 (long ago corrected) to continue to power it.  So you can imagine = my=20 surprise after I first installed the EC2 and turn off the power to it a = (but not=20 the injectors) =96 the engine continued to run.  So not knowing = what was=20 going on , I killed the engine using my injector switches and found I = like the=20 way that brought the engine to an immediate = stop.

 

Yes, you can = turn off=20 the fuel pump but there is still pressurized fuel in there for a moment = or two=20 that can continue to inject into your engine until the pressure drops = down.=20  You can turn of the ignition and ditto.  Again no biggie, but = I like=20 the way the engine stops when the injectors are turned off =96 there is = No wind=20 down, the engine stops producing power=20  immediately.

 

Again, was as = not=20 trying to get you to change your wiring, just providing my viewpoint on = my=20 preference .

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW=20 Rotary Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.r= otaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 = 10:22=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector = Select=20 Switch [FlyRotary] Re: Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Ut-Oh...

 

Ed,

 

1) Have you ever had an = injector=20 failure that required this?

2) There were a number = of=20 occasions during initial debug when it was helpful to disable injector = pairs. It=20 was easy enough to do this by pulling power where they were plugged into = the=20 essential bus. Not as convenient as flipping a switch, but I don=92t = anticipate=20 having to mess with it ever again.

3) Are your supply lines = to your=20 injectors fused? If not, why not? If they do short in flight how do = you=20 know to turn off the switches?

4) I turn off the fuel = pump to=20 kill the engine. I suppose this does leave a possibility of a little = fuel in the=20 chamber? Not sure there is any reason for=20 concern?

 

Mike=20 Wills 

 

From: Ed=20 Anderson

Sent: Tuesday,=20 March 16, 2010 6:30 AM

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Injector Select Switch [FlyRotary] Re: Civil Discourse was : = [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...

 

I also =  find the=20 =93Injector Select=94 switches useful for several purposes, Rino.=20

 

1.  If a = problem=20 with one injector of a pair occurs, I can turn that pair off and fly = home on the=20 remaining pair.

2.  They = are great=20 for trouble shooting injector problems by permitting you to choose which = pair=20 will be on without question.

3. In the = highly=20 unlikely (but possible) event that a power wire to a pair should short = to=20 ground, you can turn the power off to that pair. =20

4. I also use = them to=20 turn off the engine =96 that ensures no residue fuel in the=20 housings.

 

 But, if = not wired=20 correctly they can cause a new installation some puzzling problems = {:>) and=20 they do add another component and we know components can fail =96 = although if=20 sized properly for the correct current and installing quality switches = and wire=20 correct the failure in one will not take you down and the likelihood of = both=20 failing at the same time is rather remote.

 

But, once = again, you=20 can certainly fly without them =96 I just find them very=20 useful.

 

My=20 0.02

 

Ed=20

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW=20 Rotary Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.r= otaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Rino
Sent:=20 Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:05 AM
To: Rotary motors=20 in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Civil = Discourse=20 was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...

 

I find the = "injector=20 failure Switches" convenient during the warmup to test the operation of = the=20 injectors just like the primary and seconday plugs=20 test.

 

Rino=20 Lacombe

 

----- = Original=20 Message -----

From: Mike = Wills=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: Tuesday, = March 16,=20 2010 1:23 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Ut-Oh...

 

I chose = not to=20 implement the "injector failure switches". I don=92t know if there are = any=20 statistics on it, but I suspect injector failure is an extremely=20 rare occurrence. On the other hand if one did fail I'd rather fly = the=20 plane and troubleshoot the problem after I'm on the ground. But = that=92s=20 part of the advantage in going the Experimental route - build it the = way you=20 want it.

 

Mike=20 Wills 

 

From: Bktrub@aol.com=20

Sent: Monday, = March 15,=20 2010 8:47 AM

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Ut-Oh...

 

In the = event of a=20 primary or secondary injector failure, the affected injector set can = be=20 switched off and the cold start switch used to richen up the remaining = injectors. This as per Tracy's instructions. I haven't = tried this,=20 and hope I never have to in the heat of battle, but there it is.=20

 

Brian=20 Trubee



__________=20 Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature = database 3267=20 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32=20 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 = Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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