X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from outbound-mail.dca.untd.com ([64.136.47.15] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with SMTP id 4168844 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:40:58 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.47.15; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juno.com; s=alpha; t=1268826021; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:Content-Type; b=DoC1r+u/6tCs1rLJ3attnxyD+e+zdAAMB9rUMXYg0JK04IDqsFcvvVRjGOdJWZV4M SLEi/PZtKyt6Te8wXytihIWoPPrF01H3hi/EpNmWUdOLnPkI6sWeJsKsVTXDL761aY z0M9qE22g5FC6zsCgnpojt6LvrAtcdXusrzDs9lo= Received: from Penny (c-98-246-117-71.hsd1.or.comcast.net [98.246.117.71]) by smtpout01.dca.untd.com with SMTP id AABF4BR6AARS8W2S for (sender ); Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:39:44 -0700 (PST) Message-ID: From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:39:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01F7_01CAC58B.DDEBE1F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18005 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18005 X-UNTD-BodySize: 9075 X-ContentStamp: 15:7:221707809 X-MAIL-INFO:3c55e97d55b1d578087db16d0895c51c5d659cbd2d1509688d0dac1d2589693c09d56c6c3d990048385dac0d6525cc55bd01294961b1790129491de1e1bd18a5bd5805550d014981bc31357ca57ca86c75b89d855805d15c5cf528a9bc8cddad48 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkARZ8zJHLm1j6KWZS8Wry1YMlZg7mOmu4g== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.171.42.31|smtpout01.dca.untd.com|smtpout01.dca.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01F7_01CAC58B.DDEBE1F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:20 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... Al, I agree with you to a certain extent, but these "fixes" can become = worse than the problem. Look at Toyota. That system is so complicated = that even the guys who designed and built it don't understand what the = failure mode is. Airplanes require more training to fly safely than = cars do and for damn good reason. If you are in the pattern and decide = to try a power off landing and inadvertently pull the mixture instead of = the throttle, what have the certified manufacturers done to prevent the = engine from stopping?=20 Can't argue with any of your statements above. However, you're using = "slippery slope" argument. Implying that ANY change will be too complex. = Since we can't stop the pilot from pulling mixture, then we shouldn't = take action on other risks?=20 In order to install a proper fix, you have to consider every possible = scenario.=20 Agree agree agree. Very important from my experience. But we always = want the real world failures to trump theory. So I encourage taking = action on the failure risk, but give thought to unexpected effects. One = option is to place a tiny button next to the "shut down knobs" (my name = for cold start and mixture knobs). Press button to enable massive = mixture changes. So if you touch the button, you now have 10 seconds to = make huge mixture changes. If you don't press the button, only small = mixture changes are enabled. This would dramatically reduce flight risk, = but would only affect users in distant future.=20 Encourage you to take a look at other applications which successfully = prevent these oop's. Some use spring loaded knobs, you have to pull and = turn to make change. Some use software or hardware to limit the change. = And then of course there are the hugely successful automobile ECU's.=20 Regards -al wick ------=_NextPart_000_01F7_01CAC58B.DDEBE1F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Bradburry
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 = 8:20=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Ut-Oh...

Al,

I agree with you to a certain extent, but = these=20 =93fixes=94 can become worse than the problem.  Look at Toyota.  That=20 system is so complicated that even the guys who designed and built it = don=92t=20 understand what the failure mode is.  Airplanes require more = training to=20 fly safely than cars do and for damn good reason.  If you are in = the=20 pattern and decide to try a power off landing and inadvertently pull = the=20 mixture instead of the throttle, what have the certified manufacturers = done to=20 prevent the engine from stopping? 

 

Can't argue with any of your statements = above.=20 However, you're using "slippery slope" argument. Implying that ANY = change will=20 be too complex. Since we can't stop the pilot from pulling mixture, = then we=20 shouldn't take action on other risks?

 

 In order to install a proper fix, you = have to=20 consider every possible scenario. 

 

Agree agree agree. Very important from = my=20 experience. But we always want the real world failures to trump = theory.=20 So I encourage taking action on the failure risk, but give thought = to=20 unexpected effects. One option is to place a tiny button next to the = "shut=20 down knobs" (my name for cold start and mixture knobs). Press button = to enable=20 massive mixture changes. So if you touch the button, you now have 10 = seconds=20 to make huge mixture changes. If you don't press the button, only = small=20 mixture changes are enabled. This would dramatically reduce = flight risk,=20 but would only affect users in distant future. =

Encourage you to take a look at other = applications=20 which successfully prevent these oop's. Some use spring loaded knobs, = you have=20 to pull and turn to make change. Some use software or hardware to = limit the=20 change. And then of course there are the hugely successful = automobile=20 ECU's.

 

 

 

Regards

-al=20 wick

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