X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4168824 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:25:44 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=gHSMhjeKyj8A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=ekHE3smAAAAA:20 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=nUuTZ29dAAAA:8 a=GuzDkjrU_VJ8EXkhtAEA:9 a=0gWiHOrNq6h6GG0gYHMA:7 a=smon-wA3PKaBfAOD9weBzf0WQEMA:4 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=1vhyWl4Y8LcA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=GI5A3Sefr5xKTuAb:21 a=i4CpvPZntCnN2I2q:21 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=xNIty7SgDt1y5Y2YNQQA:9 a=2_syxOkuHwZ_zEol5DcA:7 a=UQ-_ZKlNJhgDvc0u1I1qaULm9R4A:4 a=ELZeYxmPgyoCtlCm:21 a=XUPNHkaowBqFE0KC:21 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 75.191.186.236 Received: from [75.191.186.236] ([75.191.186.236:3678] helo=computername) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id 51/58-05956-21CB0AB4; Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:25:07 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" Message-ID: <51.58.05956.21CB0AB4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector Select Switch [FlyRotary] Re: Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:25:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0090_01CAC5A2.FA127D50" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcrFeLNl/zeqPXk1SUqZnhm+aCgOQQASVsBw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 In-Reply-To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0090_01CAC5A2.FA127D50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike, Was not trying to get you to change your wiring, just providing my viewpoint on my preference. As I said - having the switches brings some down side such as possible component failure (switches), miswiring causing trouble shooting and head scratching, etc. Yes, I once had an injector fail to open (turned out to have developed an open coil) in flight - at the time of flight was not certain what the problem was but found that by switching off the affected pair made the engine run smoother and EGT even out. Could undoubtedly have made it home without doing that in this case, but it was nice to isolate the problem and come home with a smooth running engine. Early on I discovered that some of the injectors I was trying out on the ground - were bad (coil OK with Ohm meter check) but just wouldn't inject fuel, the switches make it much easier to isolate which pair and then which injector was the bad 0ne. If you don't have a bunch of old injectors to check then this does provide any benefit. Yes, you can always pull the electrical connector on the injectors, but with my primary injectors in the block behind my intake manifold - it is not an easy job. Switches make it easier. No fuses, but I do have Circuit Breakers in those lines, so you are correct - a shorted wire should cause no ultimate problem that the popping circuit breaker wouldn't take care of. Agree, you can kill the engine any number of ways. However, early on the EC2 had a sneak circuit that provided sufficient power through the injector power wires to the old EC2 (long ago corrected) to continue to power it. So you can imagine my surprise after I first installed the EC2 and turn off the power to it a (but not the injectors) - the engine continued to run. So not knowing what was going on , I killed the engine using my injector switches and found I like the way that brought the engine to an immediate stop. Yes, you can turn off the fuel pump but there is still pressurized fuel in there for a moment or two that can continue to inject into your engine until the pressure drops down. You can turn of the ignition and ditto. Again no biggie, but I like the way the engine stops when the injectors are turned off - there is No wind down, the engine stops producing power immediately. Again, was as not trying to get you to change your wiring, just providing my viewpoint on my preference . Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:22 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector Select Switch [FlyRotary] Re: Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... Ed, 1) Have you ever had an injector failure that required this? 2) There were a number of occasions during initial debug when it was helpful to disable injector pairs. It was easy enough to do this by pulling power where they were plugged into the essential bus. Not as convenient as flipping a switch, but I don't anticipate having to mess with it ever again. 3) Are your supply lines to your injectors fused? If not, why not? If they do short in flight how do you know to turn off the switches? 4) I turn off the fuel pump to kill the engine. I suppose this does leave a possibility of a little fuel in the chamber? Not sure there is any reason for concern? Mike Wills From: Ed Anderson Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:30 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Injector Select Switch [FlyRotary] Re: Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... I also find the "Injector Select" switches useful for several purposes, Rino. 1. If a problem with one injector of a pair occurs, I can turn that pair off and fly home on the remaining pair. 2. They are great for trouble shooting injector problems by permitting you to choose which pair will be on without question. 3. In the highly unlikely (but possible) event that a power wire to a pair should short to ground, you can turn the power off to that pair. 4. I also use them to turn off the engine - that ensures no residue fuel in the housings. But, if not wired correctly they can cause a new installation some puzzling problems {:>) and they do add another component and we know components can fail - although if sized properly for the correct current and installing quality switches and wire correct the failure in one will not take you down and the likelihood of both failing at the same time is rather remote. But, once again, you can certainly fly without them - I just find them very useful. My 0.02 Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Rino Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:05 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... I find the "injector failure Switches" convenient during the warmup to test the operation of the injectors just like the primary and seconday plugs test. Rino Lacombe ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Wills To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:23 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... I chose not to implement the "injector failure switches". I don't know if there are any statistics on it, but I suspect injector failure is an extremely rare occurrence. On the other hand if one did fail I'd rather fly the plane and troubleshoot the problem after I'm on the ground. But that's part of the advantage in going the Experimental route - build it the way you want it. Mike Wills From: Bktrub@aol.com Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 8:47 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... In the event of a primary or secondary injector failure, the affected injector set can be switched off and the cold start switch used to richen up the remaining injectors. This as per Tracy's instructions. I haven't tried this, and hope I never have to in the heat of battle, but there it is. Brian Trubee __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0090_01CAC5A2.FA127D50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Mike,

 

Was not trying to get you to change = your wiring, just providing my viewpoint on my preference.  As I said - = having the switches brings some down side such as possible component failure (switches), miswiring causing trouble shooting and head scratching, = etc.

 

 

Yes, I once had an injector fail to = open (turned out to have developed  an open coil) in flight – at = the time of flight was not certain what the problem was but found that by = switching off the affected pair made the engine run smoother and EGT even out.  = Could undoubtedly have made it home without doing that in this case, but it = was nice to isolate the problem and come home with a smooth running = engine.

 

Early on I discovered that some of = the injectors I was trying out on the ground – were bad (coil OK with = Ohm meter check) but just wouldn’t inject fuel, the switches make it = much easier to isolate which pair and then which injector was the bad = 0ne.  If you don’t have a bunch of old injectors to check then this does = provide any benefit.

 

Yes, you can always pull the = electrical connector on the injectors, but with my primary injectors in the block = behind my intake manifold – it is not an easy job.  Switches make it easier.

 

No fuses, but I do have Circuit = Breakers in those lines, so you are correct - a shorted wire should cause no = ultimate problem that the popping circuit breaker wouldn’t take care = of.

 

Agree, you can kill the engine any = number of ways.  However, early on the EC2 had a sneak circuit that = provided sufficient power through the injector power wires to the old EC2 (long = ago corrected) to continue to power it.  So you can imagine my surprise = after I first installed the EC2 and turn off the power to it a (but not the = injectors) – the engine continued to run.  So not knowing what was going = on , I killed the engine using my injector switches and found I like the way = that brought the engine to an immediate stop.

 

Yes, you can turn off the fuel pump = but there is still pressurized fuel in there for a moment or two that can = continue to inject into your engine until the pressure drops down.  You can = turn of the ignition and ditto.  Again no biggie, but I like the way the = engine stops when the injectors are turned off – there is No wind down, = the engine stops producing power =  immediately.

 

Again, was as not trying to get you = to change your wiring, just providing my viewpoint on my preference = .

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, = 2010 10:22 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Injector Select Switch [FlyRotary] Re: Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: = Ut-Oh...

 

Ed,

 

1) Have you ever had an injector failure that = required this?

2) There were a number of occasions during initial = debug when it was helpful to disable injector pairs. It was easy enough to do = this by pulling power where they were plugged into the essential bus. Not as = convenient as flipping a switch, but I don’t anticipate having to mess with = it ever again.

3) Are your supply lines to your injectors = fused? If not, why not? If they do short in flight how do you know to turn off the switches?

4) I turn off the fuel pump to kill the engine. I = suppose this does leave a possibility of a little fuel in the chamber? Not sure = there is any reason for concern?

 

Mike Wills 

 

From: Ed Anderson

Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:30 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Injector Select Switch [FlyRotary] Re: Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...

 

I also  find the = “Injector Select” switches useful for several purposes, Rino. =

 

1.  If a problem with one = injector of a pair occurs, I can turn that pair off and fly home on the remaining = pair.

2.  They are great for trouble shooting injector problems by permitting you to choose which pair will = be on without question.

3. In the highly unlikely (but = possible) event that a power wire to a pair should short to ground, you can turn = the power off to that pair. 

4. I also use them to turn off the = engine – that ensures no residue fuel in the = housings.

 

 But, if not wired correctly = they can cause a new installation some puzzling problems {:>) and they do add = another component and we know components can fail – although if sized = properly for the correct current and installing quality switches and wire correct = the failure in one will not take you down and the likelihood of both failing = at the same time is rather remote.

 

But, once again, you can certainly = fly without them – I just find them very = useful.

 

My = 0.02

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Rino
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, = 2010 8:05 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...

 

I find the "injector failure = Switches" convenient during the warmup to test the operation of the injectors just = like the primary and seconday plugs test.

 

=

Rino = Lacombe

 

=

----- Original Message ----- =

From: Mike = Wills

Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:23 = AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: = Ut-Oh...

 

=

I chose not = to implement the "injector failure switches". I don’t know = if there are any statistics on it, but I suspect injector failure is an = extremely rare occurrence. On the other hand if one did fail I'd rather fly = the plane and troubleshoot the problem after I'm on the ground. But = that’s part of the advantage in going the Experimental route - build it the way = you want it.

 

=

Mike = Wills 

 

From: Bktrub@aol.com =

Sent: Monday, March = 15, 2010 8:47 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Civil Discourse was : [FlyRotary] Re: = Ut-Oh...

 

=

In the event of = a primary or secondary injector failure, the affected injector set can be switched off and the cold start switch used to richen up the remaining injectors. This as per Tracy's instructions. I haven't tried this, and hope I never have to in the heat = of battle, but there it is.

 

=

Brian = Trubee



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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