X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4167694 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:49:48 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=eZvFB_OztO0A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=ekHE3smAAAAA:20 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=NoAKp6exAAAA:8 a=N8B9JuSIAAAA:8 a=nUuTZ29dAAAA:8 a=FC7e6FwGUP-ChhqacHQA:9 a=lflYYQA7Hb6SWrn8PfoA:7 a=d40LKkxJihiq1ArvFNuLkNmXYuMA:4 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=1vhyWl4Y8LcA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=iVkDmfvjeKcA:10 a=B0cvAcWxpcAA:10 a=mtUVOdE7vhEMvNN5:21 a=yQ8-kkgmCsgU6Exk:21 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=TR4viXA5hgY3RUvJCnsA:9 a=pACqrbtXYbca6qDkS6sA:7 a=-mQFtcJFiirDLr9nrmjwdVSaavgA:4 a=63te21sjd9_uxzmj:21 a=GJSI1i9qf5c8wsKj:21 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 75.191.186.236 Received: from [75.191.186.236] ([75.191.186.236:3525] helo=computername) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id C3/D0-23425-986BF9B4; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:49:14 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" Message-ID: To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: Pecan Plantation Flyin [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:49:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01CAC507.16122010" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcrFJwOzYk3SKXcxQDSNp4bcO8PWzQAASZOQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CAC507.16122010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Boy, had memory of the journey to get to Pecan Plantation - bitter cold in my cockpit - OAT reading 12F flying from Mississippi to Pecan without a stop. Almost drug a wing tip when the gusty wind at Pecan bounced me all over the place. But, well worth it once we got inside and got to talk to all you folks and enjoy the hospitality that Bill and Linda Eslick and other's provided.. Yes, I first met my hero in Thomasville, GA flying in 2000 - had talked/email with Tracy every since I saw his photo on the cover of Kitplane in 1995, but didn't get to meet him until then. Fast friends ever since and ever more. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Chris Barber Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:37 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... Agreed. My concern is that Tracy is my projects greatest "single point of failure" should he decide to put all this nonsense and our silliness behind him and just call it quits and actually retire. Tracy, thanks for the continued thoughtful support and hanging in there. Your knowledge and support is appreciated more than I/we can express. Kinda funny as my "ex" made fun of me when I first met you at Pecan Plantation at the cold Texas rotary round-up a few years a go...she thought it was so funny that I was "meeting my hero". Well, she was kinda right. ;-) Thanks. All the best, Chris Barber Houston, GSOT _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of David Leonard [wdleonard@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:17 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... Hear Hear!! Dave Leonard (or is it Here Here?) On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Mike Wills wrote: Just in case its not clear, I think most of us here appreciate how tough it must be for essentially a one man show to play such a key role in our pursuits here. Thanks for making my airplane possible Tracy. Mike Wills From: Tracy Crook Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 9:46 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... You make a lot of valid points Al. Don't always agree on the conclusion but the points are good. For example, your idea for the "are you sure?" step for mixture adjustment would hamper the immediate action of adjusting the mixture as one of the first steps I recommend when ever any engine running problem occurs. There is a LONG list of reasons for doing this and it has saved my bacon on many occasions, especially during early development. No argument, there ARE a lot of 'small' (ha!) changes I could make to improve things. Cost, complexity and time are major factors why I don't. That last one is a biggie. I spend well over 40 hours a week just trying to keep up with current demands in a business that I had no intention of getting into and would gladly turn over to someone else if that were possible. (I tried that once on a limited basis and it was a disaster) Fundamental changes that affect basic function and safety are a different matter. When they come up everything else gets dropped and the problem is addressed as quickly and completely as I know how to do. So yes, what I am offering is only the best I can do with the time and resources I have available. It is far from the best that can be done. And yes, I know there is the chance that I could be hearing that line from some grieving widow's lawyer someday. Another great aspect of this thing. Some risks you just have to live with. Tracy Crook, RWS On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Al Wick wrote: Another dead stick landing. Same old causes. Fortunately no fatalities....this time. Let's pretend you are the copilot. You've been flying along for 10 minutes. When the pilot says: "Hey Bob, how about giving me 150 times as much fuel right now." You'd say:"WHAT?!! You are crazy, that will shut down the engine!" Pilot:" Oops, my bad. O2 and egt's are normal. My mistake" Does that sound far fetched? Nope. It happens a couple times a year. Often it's a case where the pilot inadvertently drives the ecu to super lean condition. Engines suddenly quits. Let's use your home pc as an example. You tell the pc to delete all files on your hard drive. It recognizes this is most unusual and could be catastrophic. So it says:"Are you sure you want to wipe out hard drive? This could be fatal" Every failure has more than one cause. Yes, the pilot inadvertently flipped the "cold start" switch when he was reaching for his gps. Was it Ed last year who inadvertently rotated the mixture to full lean? Last year Keith's passenger bumped the ecu mixture knob while getting in the plane. So, yes, Ed, Keith, and Dave all made the same mistakes. They placed a switch capable of shutting down the engine in the wrong area of the instrument panel. End of story? NO! As soon as one of these ECU suppliers adds the "Are you sure?" logic, then all of these failures disappear. Pretty simple logic statement. Actually, there are a whole bunch of ways this can be handled. I had to do this type of programming with industrial plc's because these same "oops" were so common. Think about this. If engine has been running for more than 5 minutes, only allow small mixture changes. Never enough to shut down engine. So let's say that 100 will shut down engine, then we only allow a change of 20 each minute. I think the ECU providers recognize builder error. "Whew! Not MY problem." They don't ask: "Is there something I can do to save lives?" If they make these simple changes, then every single plane is no longer sensitive to these common "oops" scenarios. So yes, if Dave moves his switch, HE will be safer. But if the ECU supplier makes this simple programming change, then every single plane will be safer. Real world mistakes will no longer shut down the engine. I want these suppliers to be successful. I want fewer plane crashes. But it's not going to happen unless you guys (privately) encourage these simple changes. This group is making good progress on failure reduction. There are a handful of ecu changes that will really make a difference. Please pursue! Question question question. -al wick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 7:10 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... I know Dave or Jon wouldn't phrase it this way but I've already received a number of messages from others about these two recent in-flight power failures due to EC2 issues. Jon's was due to a loose mounting nut inside the EC2 that shorted the main power input filter to ground and burned open both foils from the 2 power input pins. How lucky was that. Anyway, at the risk of sounding defensive, I thought I'd share my response to one of them that suggested changing the EC2 case to an external mount of some sort. I'm sure there are scores of messages on the way urging me to place switch guards on the cold start switch : ) REPLY Hello ---------- I'm aware of the failure and have the unit here for repair. Like a thousand other critical details in building an aircraft, it is not possible to explicitly spell out all of them. The precise method and hardware used to accomplish it are not part of the EC2 or the instructions. The first paragraph of the installation guide does say the following: "Needless to say, the quality of installation is just as important as the quality of the hardware itself. It is not practical to include a course on proper electrical wiring practices in these installation instructions, but it is imperative that proper wiring techniques be employed during the installation of the EC2." It was my thought that avoiding the presence of loose metal objects inside an electrical device that your life depends on fell into the category of "needless to say". Nevertheless, a cautionary note might well be worth adding. As also stated in the first paragraph of the instructions, " I want your project to succeed and your life to be a long and happy one. " -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01CAC507.16122010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Boy, had memory of the journey to = get to Pecan Plantation – bitter cold in my cockpit – OAT reading = 12F flying from Mississippi to Pecan without a stop.  Almost drug a wing tip when the gusty = wind at Pecan bounced me all over the place.  But, well worth it once we got = inside and got to talk to all you folks and enjoy the hospitality that Bill and Linda = Eslick and other’s provided..

 

Yes, I first met my hero in = Thomasville, GA flying in 2000 – had talked/email with Tracy every since I saw his photo on the cover of Kitplane in 1995, but = didn’t get to meet him until then.  Fast friends ever since and ever = more.

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Chris Barber
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, = 2010 12:37 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Ut-Oh...

 

Agreed.  My concern is that = Tracy is my = projects greatest "single point of failure" should he decide to put all = this nonsense and our silliness behind him and just call it quits = and actually retire. 

 

Tracy, thanks for the continued thoughtful support and hanging = in there. Your knowledge and support is appreciated more than I/we can express.  Kinda funny as my "ex" made fun of me when = I first met you at Pecan Plantation at the cold Texas rotary round-up a few years a = go...she thought it was so funny that I was "meeting my hero".  = Well, she was kinda right.  ;-) Thanks.

 

All the = best,

 

Chris = Barber

Houston, = GSOT

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on = behalf of David Leonard [wdleonard@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, = 2010 12:17 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Ut-Oh...

Hear Hear!!

Dave Leonard   = (or is it Here Here?)

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:26 PM, = Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net> wrote:

Just in case = its not clear, I think most of us here appreciate how tough it must be for = essentially a one man show to play such a key role in our pursuits here. Thanks for = making my airplane possible Tracy.

 

Mike = Wills

 

From: Tracy Crook =

Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 9:46 = AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...

 

You make a lot of valid points Al.  Don't always agree on the conclusion but = the points are good.   For example, your idea for the "are = you sure?" step for mixture adjustment would hamper the immediate = action of adjusting the mixture as one of the first steps I recommend when ever = any engine running problem occurs.  There is a LONG list of reasons for = doing this and it has saved my bacon on many occasions, especially during = early development.

No argument, there ARE a lot of 'small' (ha!) changes I could make to = improve things.   Cost, complexity and time are major factors why I don't.  That last one is a biggie.  I spend well over 40 hours = a week just trying to keep up with current demands in a business that I had no intention of getting into and would gladly turn over to someone else if = that were possible.  (I tried that once on a limited basis and it was a disaster) 

Fundamental changes that affect basic function and safety are a = different matter.  When they come up everything else gets dropped and the = problem is addressed as quickly and completely as I know how to do.

So yes, what I am offering is only the best I can do with the time and resources I have available.  It is far from the best that can be = done.  And yes, I know there is the chance that I could be hearing that line = from some grieving widow's lawyer someday.  Another great aspect of this thing.  Some risks you just have to live with.

Tracy Crook,   RWS

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:09 AM, = Al Wick <alwick@juno.com> = wrote:

Another dead stick = landing. Same old causes. Fortunately no fatalities....this time.

 

Let's pretend you are the copilot. = You've been flying along for 10 minutes. When the pilot says: "Hey Bob, = how about giving me 150 times as much fuel right now."   You'd say:"WHAT?!! You are crazy, that will shut down the = engine!"

Pilot:" Oops, my bad. O2 and = egt's are normal. My mistake"

 

Does that sound far fetched? Nope. = It happens a couple times a year. Often it's a case where the pilot = inadvertently drives the ecu to super lean condition. Engines suddenly quits. = Let's use your home pc as an example. You tell the pc to delete all files on your = hard drive. It recognizes this is most unusual and could be catastrophic. So = it says:"Are you sure you want to wipe out hard drive? This could be fatal"

 

Every failure has more than one = cause. Yes, the pilot inadvertently flipped the "cold start" switch = when he was reaching for his gps. Was it Ed last year who inadvertently rotated = the mixture to full lean?  Last year Keith's passenger bumped the = ecu mixture knob while getting in the plane. So, yes, Ed, Keith, = and Dave all made the same mistakes. They placed a switch capable of shutting down = the engine in the wrong area of the instrument panel. End of story? = NO!

 

As soon as one of these ECU = suppliers adds the "Are you sure?" logic, then all of these failures = disappear. Pretty simple logic statement. Actually, there are a whole bunch of ways = this can be handled. I had to do this type of programming with industrial = plc's because these same "oops" were so common. Think about this. If = engine has been running for more than 5 minutes, only allow small mixture = changes. Never enough to shut down engine. So let's say that 100 will shut down = engine, then we only allow a change of 20 each minute.

 

I think the ECU providers = recognize builder error. "Whew! Not MY problem."  They don't ask: = "Is there something I can do to save lives?"   If they make = these simple changes, then every single plane is no longer sensitive to these = common "oops" scenarios. So yes, if Dave moves his switch, HE = will be safer. But if the ECU supplier makes this simple programming change, = then every single plane will be safer. Real world mistakes will no longer shut down = the engine.

 

I want these suppliers to be = successful. I want fewer plane crashes. But it's not going to happen unless you guys (privately) encourage these simple changes.

 

This group is making good progress = on failure reduction. There are a handful of ecu changes that will really = make a difference. Please pursue! Question question question. =

 

 

-al wick

----- Original Message ----- =

From: Tracy Crook =

Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 7:10 = AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...

 

I = know Dave or Jon wouldn't phrase it this way but I've already received a number of messages from others about these two recent in-flight power failures due = to EC2 issues.

 Jon's was due to a loose mounting nut inside the EC2 that shorted = the main power input filter to ground and burned open both foils from the 2 = power input pins.  How lucky was that.

  Anyway, at the risk of sounding defensive, I thought I'd share my response to one of them that suggested changing the EC2 case to an = external mount of some sort.  I'm sure there are scores of messages on the = way urging me to place switch guards on the cold start switch  : )

REPLY

Hello ----------
  I'm aware of the failure and have the unit here for repair.

   Like a thousand other critical details in building an = aircraft, it is not possible to explicitly spell out all of them.  The precise = method and hardware used to accomplish it are not part of the EC2 or the = instructions. The first paragraph of the installation guide does say the = following:

"Needless to say, the quality of installation is just as important = as the quality of the hardware itself.  It is not practical to include a = course on proper electrical wiring practices in these installation = instructions, but it is imperative that proper wiring techniques be employed during the installation of the EC2."

It was my thought that avoiding the presence of loose metal objects = inside an electrical device that your life depends on fell into the category = of  "needless to say".

Nevertheless, a cautionary note might well be worth adding.   = As also stated in the first paragraph of the instructions,
" I want your project to succeed and your life to be a long and = happy one. "

 

 




--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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