X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from securemail.ever-tek.com ([64.129.170.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4167708 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:37:44 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@texasattorney.net Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3004596844FCDMAIL06FCDATA_" Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:37:18 +0000 From: Chris Barber In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3004596844@FCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from fcd-mail06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([2002:404:40b::404:40b]) byFCD-MAIL06.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([2002:404:40b::404:40b]) with mapi; Tue, 16 Mar2010 11:37:19 -0500 References: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... Thread-Index: AQHKxMgdpobG1Vk7yk2LPmiOFfMoOpH0wk2l Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... To: Rotary motors in aircraft X-Modus-SURBL: =OK X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3004596844FCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agreed. My concern is that Tracy is my projects greatest "single point of = failure" should he decide to put all this nonsense and our silliness behind= him and just call it quits and actually retire. Tracy, thanks for the continued thoughtful support and hanging in there. Yo= ur knowledge and support is appreciated more than I/we can express. Kinda = funny as my "ex" made fun of me when I first met you at Pecan Plantation at= the cold Texas rotary round-up a few years a go...she thought it was so fu= nny that I was "meeting my hero". Well, she was kinda right. ;-) Thanks. All the best, Chris Barber Houston, GSOT ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of = David Leonard [wdleonard@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:17 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... Hear Hear!! Dave Leonard (or is it Here Here?) On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Mike Wills > wrote: Just in case its not clear, I think most of us here appreciate how tough it= must be for essentially a one man show to play such a key role in our purs= uits here. Thanks for making my airplane possible Tracy. Mike Wills From: Tracy Crook Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 9:46 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... You make a lot of valid points Al. Don't always agree on the conclusion bu= t the points are good. For example, your idea for the "are you sure?" ste= p for mixture adjustment would hamper the immediate action of adjusting the= mixture as one of the first steps I recommend when ever any engine running= problem occurs. There is a LONG list of reasons for doing this and it has= saved my bacon on many occasions, especially during early development. No argument, there ARE a lot of 'small' (ha!) changes I could make to impro= ve things. Cost, complexity and time are major factors why I don't. That= last one is a biggie. I spend well over 40 hours a week just trying to ke= ep up with current demands in a business that I had no intention of getting= into and would gladly turn over to someone else if that were possible. (I= tried that once on a limited basis and it was a disaster) Fundamental changes that affect basic function and safety are a different m= atter. When they come up everything else gets dropped and the problem is a= ddressed as quickly and completely as I know how to do. So yes, what I am offering is only the best I can do with the time and reso= urces I have available. It is far from the best that can be done. And yes= , I know there is the chance that I could be hearing that line from some gr= ieving widow's lawyer someday. Another great aspect of this thing. Some r= isks you just have to live with. Tracy Crook, RWS On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Al Wick > wrote: Another dead stick landing. Same old causes. Fortunately no fatalities....t= his time. Let's pretend you are the copilot. You've been flying along for 10 minutes.= When the pilot says: "Hey Bob, how about giving me 150 times as much fuel = right now." You'd say:"WHAT?!! You are crazy, that will shut down the eng= ine!" Pilot:" Oops, my bad. O2 and egt's are normal. My mistake" Does that sound far fetched? Nope. It happens a couple times a year. Often = it's a case where the pilot inadvertently drives the ecu to super lean cond= ition. Engines suddenly quits. Let's use your home pc as an example. You te= ll the pc to delete all files on your hard drive. It recognizes this is mos= t unusual and could be catastrophic. So it says:"Are you sure you want to w= ipe out hard drive? This could be fatal" Every failure has more than one cause. Yes, the pilot inadvertently flipped= the "cold start" switch when he was reaching for his gps. Was it Ed last y= ear who inadvertently rotated the mixture to full lean? Last year Keith's = passenger bumped the ecu mixture knob while getting in the plane. So, yes, = Ed, Keith, and Dave all made the same mistakes. They placed a switch capabl= e of shutting down the engine in the wrong area of the instrument panel. En= d of story? NO! As soon as one of these ECU suppliers adds the "Are you sure?" logic, then = all of these failures disappear. Pretty simple logic statement. Actually, t= here are a whole bunch of ways this can be handled. I had to do this type o= f programming with industrial plc's because these same "oops" were so commo= n. Think about this. If engine has been running for more than 5 minutes, on= ly allow small mixture changes. Never enough to shut down engine. So let's = say that 100 will shut down engine, then we only allow a change of 20 each = minute. I think the ECU providers recognize builder error. "Whew! Not MY problem." = They don't ask: "Is there something I can do to save lives?" If they mak= e these simple changes, then every single plane is no longer sensitive to t= hese common "oops" scenarios. So yes, if Dave moves his switch, HE will be = safer. But if the ECU supplier makes this simple programming change, then e= very single plane will be safer. Real world mistakes will no longer shut do= wn the engine. I want these suppliers to be successful. I want fewer plane crashes. But it= 's not going to happen unless you guys (privately) encourage these simple c= hanges. This group is making good progress on failure reduction. There are a handfu= l of ecu changes that will really make a difference. Please pursue! Questio= n question question. -al wick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 7:10 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... I know Dave or Jon wouldn't phrase it this way but I've already received a = number of messages from others about these two recent in-flight power failu= res due to EC2 issues. Jon's was due to a loose mounting nut inside the EC2 that shorted the main= power input filter to ground and burned open both foils from the 2 power i= nput pins. How lucky was that. Anyway, at the risk of sounding defensive, I thought I'd share my respons= e to one of them that suggested changing the EC2 case to an external mount = of some sort. I'm sure there are scores of messages on the way urging me t= o place switch guards on the cold start switch : ) REPLY Hello ---------- I'm aware of the failure and have the unit here for repair. Like a thousand other critical details in building an aircraft, it is no= t possible to explicitly spell out all of them. The precise method and har= dware used to accomplish it are not part of the EC2 or the instructions. Th= e first paragraph of the installation guide does say the following: "Needless to say, the quality of installation is just as important as the q= uality of the hardware itself. It is not practical to include a course on = proper electrical wiring practices in these installation instructions, but = it is imperative that proper wiring techniques be employed during the insta= llation of the EC2." It was my thought that avoiding the presence of loose metal objects inside = an electrical device that your life depends on fell into the category of "= needless to say". Nevertheless, a cautionary note might well be worth adding. As also state= d in the first paragraph of the instructions, " I want your project to succeed and your life to be a long and happy one. = " -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net --_000_2D41F9BF3B5F9842B164AF93214F3D3004596844FCDMAIL06FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Agreed.  My concern is that Tracy is my projects greatest "s= ingle point of failure" should he decide to put all this nonsense and = our silliness behind him and just call it quits and actual= ly retire. 
 
Tracy, thanks for the continued thoughtful support and hanging in ther= e. Your knowledge and support is appreciated more than I/we can= express.  Kinda funny as my "ex" made fu= n of me when I first met you at Pecan Plantation at the cold Texas rotary round-up a few years a go...she thought it was so funny that = I was "meeting my hero".  Well, she was kinda= right.  ;-) Thanks.
 
All the best,
 
Chris Barber
Houston, GSOT
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary= @lancaironline.net] on behalf of David Leonard [wdleonard@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 12:17 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...

Hear Hear!!

Dave Leonard   (or is it Here Here?)

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net<= /a>> wrote:
Just in case its not clear, I think most of us = here appreciate how tough it must be for essentially a one man show to play= such a key role in our pursuits here. Thanks for making my airplane possib= le Tracy.
 
Mike Wills

Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 9:46 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...

You make a lot of valid points Al.  Don't always agr= ee on the conclusion but the points are good.   For example, your= idea for the "are you sure?" step for mixture adjustment would h= amper the immediate action of adjusting the mixture as one of the first steps I recommend when ever any engine running problem occurs= .  There is a LONG list of reasons for doing this and it has saved my = bacon on many occasions, especially during early development.

No argument, there ARE a lot of 'small' (ha!) changes I could make to impro= ve things.   Cost, complexity and time are major factors why I do= n't.  That last one is a biggie.  I spend well over 40 hours a we= ek just trying to keep up with current demands in a business that I had no intention of getting into and would gladly turn ove= r to someone else if that were possible.  (I tried that once on a limi= ted basis and it was a disaster) 

Fundamental changes that affect basic function and safety are a different m= atter.  When they come up everything else gets dropped and the problem= is addressed as quickly and completely as I know how to do.

So yes, what I am offering is only the best I can do with the time and reso= urces I have available.  It is far from the best that can be done.&nbs= p; And yes, I know there is the chance that I could be hearing that line fr= om some grieving widow's lawyer someday.  Another great aspect of this thing.  Some risks you just have to live= with.

Tracy Crook,   RWS

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Al Wick <alwick@juno.com= > wrote:
Another dead stick landing. Same = old causes. Fortunately no fatalities....this time.
 
Let's pretend you are the copilot. You= 've been flying along for 10 minutes. When the pilot says: "Hey Bob, h= ow about giving me 150 times as much fuel right now."   You'= d say:"WHAT?!! You are crazy, that will shut down the engine!"
Pilot:" Oops, my bad. O2 and egt'= s are normal. My mistake"
 
Does that sound far fetched? Nope. It = happens a couple times a year. Often it's a case where the pilot inadverten= tly drives the ecu to super lean condition. Engines suddenly quits. Le= t's use your home pc as an example. You tell the pc to delete all files on your hard drive. It recognizes this is most = unusual and could be catastrophic. So it says:"Are you sure you want t= o wipe out hard drive? This could be fatal"
 
Every failure has more than one cause.= Yes, the pilot inadvertently flipped the "cold start" switch whe= n he was reaching for his gps. Was it Ed last year who inadvertently rotate= d the mixture to full lean?  Last year Keith's passenger bumped the ecu mixture knob while getting in the plane. So,= yes, Ed, Keith, and Dave all made the same mistakes. They placed a sw= itch capable of shutting down the engine in the wrong area of the instrumen= t panel. End of story? NO!
 
As soon as one of these ECU suppliers = adds the "Are you sure?" logic, then all of these failures disapp= ear. Pretty simple logic statement. Actually, there are a whole bunch of wa= ys this can be handled. I had to do this type of programming with industrial plc's because these same "oops" w= ere so common. Think about this. If engine has been running for more than 5= minutes, only allow small mixture changes. Never enough to shut down engin= e. So let's say that 100 will shut down engine, then we only allow a change of 20 each minute.
 
I think the ECU providers recognize bu= ilder error. "Whew! Not MY problem."  They don't ask: "= Is there something I can do to save lives?"   If they make t= hese simple changes, then every single plane is no longer sensitive to these common "oops" scenarios. So yes, if Dave moves his sw= itch, HE will be safer. But if the ECU supplier makes this simple programmi= ng change, then every single plane will be safer. Real world mistakes will = no longer shut down the engine.
 
I want these suppliers to be successfu= l. I want fewer plane crashes. But it's not going to happen unless you guys= (privately) encourage these simple changes.
 
This group is making good progress on = failure reduction. There are a handful of ecu changes that will really make= a difference. Please pursue! Question question question.
 
 
-al wick
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 7:10 AM=
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...

I know Dave or Jon wouldn't phrase it this way but I've already received a = number of messages from others about these two recent in-flight power failu= res due to EC2 issues.

 Jon's was due to a loose mounting nut inside the EC2 that shorted the= main power input filter to ground and burned open both foils from the 2 po= wer input pins.  How lucky was that.

  Anyway, at the risk of sounding defensive, I thought I'd share my re= sponse to one of them that suggested changing the EC2 case to an external m= ount of some sort.  I'm sure there are scores of messages on the way u= rging me to place switch guards on the cold start switch  : )

REPLY

Hello ----------
  I'm aware of the failure and have the unit here for repair.

   Like a thousand other critical details in building an aircraft= , it is not possible to explicitly spell out all of them.  The precise= method and hardware used to accomplish it are not part of the EC2 or the i= nstructions. The first paragraph of the installation guide does say the following:

"= Needless to say, the quality of installation is just as important as the qu= ality of the hardware itself.  It is not practical to include a course on proper electrical wiring = practices in these installation instructions, but it is imperative that pro= per wiring techniques be employed during the installation of the EC2."

It was my thought that avoiding the presence of loose metal objects inside = an electrical device that your life depends on fell into the category of&nb= sp; "needless to say".

Nevertheless, a cautionary note might well be worth adding.   As = also stated in the first paragraph of the instructions,
" I want your project to succeed and your life to be a long and = happy one. "
 




--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.Rota= ryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
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