X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-pw0-f52.google.com ([209.85.160.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4167247 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 01:18:04 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.160.52; envelope-from=wdleonard@gmail.com Received: by pwj9 with SMTP id 9so506485pwj.25 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 22:17:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=P6NiBGp5Md/tonL3Ce11LDyRGG2oe78wpYLucBQvWvA=; b=Nq6LgXswmZwbyBsnImTCihtV6SE5pTofBP6dCArUKXEGKw3atCflZoN7MEk9CMzq07 8jjL1ZZYX1P9lRCFjJU1NLf1Ertq+9M42DezjhrDMkjRDJqZ3vRoVvQnaCtcjD16m4k8 QX0el2ElLZoEiSL3G37RzFCpkuMEaj7vMpjYQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=ehEv+lWWVGY1arsFDRnwVdCgL4jJd6tX+z6642QkL45ROeZIUqHJNdBOproyQfkED/ OSwQ/bklB5PCBUtKVuZNpnurIPeffGpl17NIMiAMhxjn3bApqxGPxBDDyT5uZMtNTp3Q 47KsmOmJ3sq1EtFIPDFK1O36Dd76O/Dy/7YBk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.141.53.14 with SMTP id f14mr6705991rvk.266.1268716647960; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 22:17:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 22:17:27 -0700 Message-ID: <1c23473f1003152217n7ef42683y2e4cb75c7314c032@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd292881f53e30481e41d09 --000e0cd292881f53e30481e41d09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hear Hear!! Dave Leonard (or is it Here Here?) On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Mike Wills wrote: > Just in case its not clear, I think most of us here appreciate how tough > it must be for essentially a one man show to play such a key role in our > pursuits here. Thanks for making my airplane possible Tracy. > > Mike Wills > > *From:* Tracy Crook > *Sent:* Monday, March 15, 2010 9:46 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... > > You make a lot of valid points Al. Don't always agree on the conclusion > but the points are good. For example, your idea for the "are you sure?" > step for mixture adjustment would hamper the immediate action of adjusting > the mixture as one of the first steps I recommend when ever any engine > running problem occurs. There is a LONG list of reasons for doing this and > it has saved my bacon on many occasions, especially during early > development. > > No argument, there ARE a lot of 'small' (ha!) changes I could make to > improve things. Cost, complexity and time are major factors why I don't. > That last one is a biggie. I spend well over 40 hours a week just trying to > keep up with current demands in a business that I had no intention of > getting into and would gladly turn over to someone else if that were > possible. (I tried that once on a limited basis and it was a disaster) > > Fundamental changes that affect basic function and safety are a different > matter. When they come up everything else gets dropped and the problem is > addressed as quickly and completely as I know how to do. > > So yes, what I am offering is only the best I can do with the time and > resources I have available. It is far from the best that can be done. And > yes, I know there is the chance that I could be hearing that line from some > grieving widow's lawyer someday. Another great aspect of this thing. Some > risks you just have to live with. > > Tracy Crook, RWS > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Al Wick wrote: > >> Another dead stick landing. Same old causes. Fortunately no >> fatalities....this time. >> >> Let's pretend you are the copilot. You've been flying along for 10 >> minutes. When the pilot says: "Hey Bob, how about giving me 150 times as >> much fuel right now." You'd say:"WHAT?!! You are crazy, that will shut >> down the engine!" >> Pilot:" Oops, my bad. O2 and egt's are normal. My mistake" >> >> Does that sound far fetched? Nope. It happens a couple times a year. Often >> it's a case where the pilot inadvertently drives the ecu to super lean >> condition. Engines suddenly quits. Let's use your home pc as an example. You >> tell the pc to delete all files on your hard drive. It recognizes this is >> most unusual and could be catastrophic. So it says:"Are you sure you want to >> wipe out hard drive? This could be fatal" >> >> Every failure has more than one cause. Yes, the pilot inadvertently >> flipped the "cold start" switch when he was reaching for his gps. Was it Ed >> last year who inadvertently rotated the mixture to full lean? Last year >> Keith's passenger bumped the ecu mixture knob while getting in the plane. >> So, yes, Ed, Keith, and Dave all made the same mistakes. They placed a >> switch capable of shutting down the engine in the wrong area of the >> instrument panel. End of story? NO! >> >> As soon as one of these ECU suppliers adds the "Are you sure?" logic, then >> all of these failures disappear. Pretty simple logic statement. Actually, >> there are a whole bunch of ways this can be handled. I had to do this type >> of programming with industrial plc's because these same "oops" were so >> common. Think about this. If engine has been running for more than 5 >> minutes, only allow small mixture changes. Never enough to shut down engine. >> So let's say that 100 will shut down engine, then we only allow a change of >> 20 each minute. >> >> I think the ECU providers recognize builder error. "Whew! Not MY >> problem." They don't ask: "Is there something I can do to save lives?" If >> they make these simple changes, then every single plane is no longer >> sensitive to these common "oops" scenarios. So yes, if Dave moves his >> switch, HE will be safer. But if the ECU supplier makes this simple >> programming change, then every single plane will be safer. Real world >> mistakes will no longer shut down the engine. >> >> I want these suppliers to be successful. I want fewer plane crashes. But >> it's not going to happen unless you guys (privately) encourage these simple >> changes. >> >> This group is making good progress on failure reduction. There are a >> handful of ecu changes that will really make a difference. Please pursue! >> Question question question. >> >> >> -al wick >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Tracy Crook >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Sunday, March 14, 2010 7:10 AM >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... >> >> I know Dave or Jon wouldn't phrase it this way but I've already received a >> number of messages from others about these two recent in-flight power >> failures due to EC2 issues. >> >> Jon's was due to a loose mounting nut inside the EC2 that shorted the >> main power input filter to ground and burned open both foils from the 2 >> power input pins. How lucky was that. >> >> Anyway, at the risk of sounding defensive, I thought I'd share my >> response to one of them that suggested changing the EC2 case to an external >> mount of some sort. I'm sure there are scores of messages on the way urging >> me to place switch guards on the cold start switch : ) >> >> REPLY >> >> Hello ---------- >> I'm aware of the failure and have the unit here for repair. >> >> Like a thousand other critical details in building an aircraft, it is >> not possible to explicitly spell out all of them. The precise method and >> hardware used to accomplish it are not part of the EC2 or the instructions. >> The first paragraph of the installation guide does say the following: >> >> "Needless to say, the quality of installation is just as important as the >> quality of the hardware itself. It is not practical to include a course >> on proper electrical wiring practices in these installation instructions, >> but it is imperative that proper wiring techniques be employed during the >> installation of the EC2." >> >> It was my thought that avoiding the presence of loose metal objects inside >> an electrical device that your life depends on fell into the category of >> "needless to say". >> >> Nevertheless, a cautionary note might well be worth adding. As also >> stated in the first paragraph of the instructions, >> " I want your project to succeed and your life to be a long and happy >> one. " >> >> >>> >> > -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net --000e0cd292881f53e30481e41d09 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hear Hear!!

Dave Leonard=A0=A0 (or is it Here Here?)

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:26 PM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net> wrote:
Just in case its not clear, I think most of us = here=20 appreciate how tough it must be for essentially a one man show to play such= a=20 key role in our pursuits here. Thanks for making my airplane possible=20 Tracy.
=A0
Mike Wills

Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 9:46 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= /div>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...

You make a lot of valid points Al.=A0 Don&= #39;t always agree on=20 the conclusion but the points are good.=A0=A0 For example, your idea for=20 the "are you sure?" step for mixture adjustment would hamper the = immediate=20 action of adjusting the mixture as one of the first steps I recommend when = ever=20 any engine running problem occurs.=A0 There is a LONG list of reasons for= =20 doing this and it has saved my bacon on many occasions, especially during e= arly=20 development.

No argument, there ARE a lot of 'small' (ha!) c= hanges I=20 could make to improve things.=A0=A0 Cost, complexity and time are major=20 factors why I don't.=A0 That last one is a biggie.=A0 I spend well over= 40=20 hours a week just trying to keep up with current demands in a business that= I=20 had no intention of getting into and would gladly turn over to someone else= if=20 that were possible.=A0 (I tried that once on a limited basis and it was a= =20 disaster)=A0

Fundamental changes that affect basic function and=20 safety are a different matter.=A0 When they come up everything else gets=20 dropped and the problem is addressed as quickly and completely as I know ho= w to=20 do.

So yes, what I am offering is only the best I can do with the ti= me=20 and resources I have available.=A0 It is far from the best that can be=20 done.=A0 And yes, I know there is the chance that I could be hearing that= =20 line from some grieving widow's lawyer someday.=A0 Another great aspect= of=20 this thing.=A0 Some risks you just have to live with.

Tracy=20 Crook,=A0=A0 RWS

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at = 10:09 AM, Al Wick <alwick@juno.com>=20 wrote:
Another dead stick landing.=A0Same o= ld causes.=20 Fortunately no fatalities....this time.
=A0
Let's pretend you are the copilo= t. You've been=20 flying along for 10 minutes. When the pilot says: "Hey Bob, how abou= t giving=20 me 150 times as much fuel right now."=A0=A0 You'd say:"WHAT= ?!! You are=20 crazy, that will shut down the engine!"
Pilot:" Oops, my bad. O2 and eg= t's are normal. My=20 mistake"
=A0
Does that sound far fetched? Nope. I= t happens a=20 couple times a year. Often it's a case where the pilot inadvertently = drives=20 the ecu to=A0super lean condition. Engines suddenly quits. Let's use = your=20 home pc as an example. You tell the pc to delete all files on your hard d= rive.=20 It recognizes this is most unusual and could be catastrophic. So it says:= "Are=20 you sure you want to wipe out hard drive? This could be fatal"
=A0
Every failure has more than one caus= e. Yes, the=20 pilot inadvertently flipped the "cold start" switch when he was= reaching for=20 his gps. Was it Ed last year who inadvertently rotated the mixture to ful= l=20 lean?=A0 Last year Keith's passenger=A0bumped the ecu mixture knob wh= ile=20 getting in the plane. So, yes, Ed, Keith, and=A0Dave all made the same=20 mistakes. They placed a switch capable of shutting down the engine in the= =20 wrong area of the instrument panel. End of story? NO!
=A0
As soon as one of these ECU supplier= s adds the=20 "Are you sure?" logic, then all of these failures disappear. Pr= etty simple=20 logic statement. Actually, there are a whole bunch of ways this can be=20 handled. I had to do this type of programming with industrial plc's b= ecause=20 these same "oops" were so common. Think about this. If engine h= as been running=20 for more than 5 minutes, only allow small mixture changes. Never enough t= o=20 shut down engine. So let's say that 100 will shut down engine, then w= e only=20 allow a change of 20 each minute.
=A0
I think the ECU providers recognize = builder=20 error. "Whew! Not MY problem."=A0 They don't ask: "Is = there something I can=20 do to save lives?"=A0=A0 If they make these simple changes, then eve= ry=20 single plane is no longer sensitive to these common "oops" scen= arios. So yes,=20 if=A0Dave moves his switch, HE will be safer. But if the ECU supplier mak= es=20 this simple programming change, then every single plane will be safer. Re= al=20 world mistakes will no longer shut down the engine.
=A0
I want these suppliers to be success= ful. I want=20 fewer plane crashes. But it's not going to happen unless you guys (pr= ivately)=20 encourage these simple changes.
=A0
This group is making good progress o= n failure=20 reduction. There are a handful of ecu changes that will really make a=20 difference. Please pursue! Question question question.
=A0
=A0
-al wick
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Crook
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 7:1= 0=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh..= .

I know Dave or Jon wouldn't phrase it this way but I= 've=20 already received a number of messages from others about these two recen= t=20 in-flight power failures due to EC2 issues.

=A0Jon's was du= e to a=20 loose mounting nut inside the EC2 that shorted the main power input fil= ter=20 to ground and burned open both foils from the 2 power input pins.=A0 Ho= w=20 lucky was that.

=A0 Anyway, at the risk of sounding defensive, = I=20 thought I'd share my response to one of them that suggested changin= g the EC2=20 case to an external mount of some sort.=A0 I'm sure there are score= s of=20 messages on the way urging me to place switch guards on the cold start= =20 switch=A0 : )

REPLY

Hello ----------
=A0 I'm aware= of=20 the failure and have the unit here for repair.

=A0=A0 Like a=20 thousand other critical details in building an aircraft, it is not poss= ible=20 to explicitly spell out all of them.=A0 The precise method and hardware= =20 used to accomplish it are not part of the EC2 or the instructions. The = first=20 paragraph of the installation guide does say the following:

"Needless t= o=20 say, the quality of installation is just as important as the quality of= the=20 hardware itself.=A0 It is not practical to include a cours= e=20 on proper electrical wiring practices in these installation instruction= s,=20 but it is imperative that proper wiring techniques be employed during t= he=20 installation of the EC2."

It was my thought that avoiding = the=20 presence of loose metal objects inside an electrical device that your l= ife=20 depends on fell into the category of=A0 "needless to=20 say".

Nevertheless, a cautionary note might well be worth= =20 adding.=A0=A0 As also stated in the first paragraph of the=20 instructions,
" I want your project=20 to succeed and your life to be a long and happy one. "
=A0




--
David Leonard

Tu= rbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4V= Y.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
--000e0cd292881f53e30481e41d09--