X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao103.cox.net ([68.230.241.43] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4167224 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:27:28 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.43; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao103.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100316042650.ISZJ19579.fed1rmmtao103.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:26:50 -0400 Received: from willsPC ([68.105.86.80]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id tgSq1d0081k005Q04gSq66; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:26:50 -0400 X-VR-Score: -130.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=KqzZVGv1/pIBe+XbL3gCBfL8vaFXECOST7Bs1vfp5Gs= c=1 sm=1 a=XruvlouZCDbGUgEaRUiNZQ==:17 a=NoAKp6exAAAA:8 a=x_GOU22XOjVmaUscPvIA:9 a=ab_viP4X8OhGPvfPq-UA:7 a=gtjJFXh7xxNTUhN1LslfAa1_Af8A:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=B0cvAcWxpcAA:10 a=fSjYCQJKx4Mg0cbR:21 a=2g4_ezp8O4qKUaug:21 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=CJUccoFOfFoBrG-wEXYA:9 a=QCi_PTQcVANIDxgwJ7wA:7 a=P0jhD7tZuK00bpceW-j3L167k_IA:4 a=iVkDmfvjeKcA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=ELBHZOdC1YyceDbz:21 a=JJulcJWm_oSfqD8v:21 a=XruvlouZCDbGUgEaRUiNZQ==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:26:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0178_01CAC486.389FA9D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0178_01CAC486.389FA9D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just in case its not clear, I think most of us here appreciate how tough = it must be for essentially a one man show to play such a key role in our = pursuits here. Thanks for making my airplane possible Tracy. Mike Wills From: Tracy Crook=20 Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 9:46 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... You make a lot of valid points Al. Don't always agree on the conclusion = but the points are good. For example, your idea for the "are you = sure?" step for mixture adjustment would hamper the immediate action of = adjusting the mixture as one of the first steps I recommend when ever = any engine running problem occurs. There is a LONG list of reasons for = doing this and it has saved my bacon on many occasions, especially = during early development. No argument, there ARE a lot of 'small' (ha!) changes I could make to = improve things. Cost, complexity and time are major factors why I = don't. That last one is a biggie. I spend well over 40 hours a week = just trying to keep up with current demands in a business that I had no = intention of getting into and would gladly turn over to someone else if = that were possible. (I tried that once on a limited basis and it was a = disaster) =20 Fundamental changes that affect basic function and safety are a = different matter. When they come up everything else gets dropped and = the problem is addressed as quickly and completely as I know how to do. So yes, what I am offering is only the best I can do with the time and = resources I have available. It is far from the best that can be done. = And yes, I know there is the chance that I could be hearing that line = from some grieving widow's lawyer someday. Another great aspect of this = thing. Some risks you just have to live with. Tracy Crook, RWS On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Al Wick wrote: Another dead stick landing. Same old causes. Fortunately no = fatalities....this time.=20 Let's pretend you are the copilot. You've been flying along for 10 = minutes. When the pilot says: "Hey Bob, how about giving me 150 times as = much fuel right now." You'd say:"WHAT?!! You are crazy, that will shut = down the engine!" Pilot:" Oops, my bad. O2 and egt's are normal. My mistake" Does that sound far fetched? Nope. It happens a couple times a year. = Often it's a case where the pilot inadvertently drives the ecu to super = lean condition. Engines suddenly quits. Let's use your home pc as an = example. You tell the pc to delete all files on your hard drive. It = recognizes this is most unusual and could be catastrophic. So it = says:"Are you sure you want to wipe out hard drive? This could be fatal" Every failure has more than one cause. Yes, the pilot inadvertently = flipped the "cold start" switch when he was reaching for his gps. Was it = Ed last year who inadvertently rotated the mixture to full lean? Last = year Keith's passenger bumped the ecu mixture knob while getting in the = plane. So, yes, Ed, Keith, and Dave all made the same mistakes. They = placed a switch capable of shutting down the engine in the wrong area of = the instrument panel. End of story? NO! As soon as one of these ECU suppliers adds the "Are you sure?" logic, = then all of these failures disappear. Pretty simple logic statement. = Actually, there are a whole bunch of ways this can be handled. I had to = do this type of programming with industrial plc's because these same = "oops" were so common. Think about this. If engine has been running for = more than 5 minutes, only allow small mixture changes. Never enough to = shut down engine. So let's say that 100 will shut down engine, then we = only allow a change of 20 each minute.=20 I think the ECU providers recognize builder error. "Whew! Not MY = problem." They don't ask: "Is there something I can do to save lives?" = If they make these simple changes, then every single plane is no longer = sensitive to these common "oops" scenarios. So yes, if Dave moves his = switch, HE will be safer. But if the ECU supplier makes this simple = programming change, then every single plane will be safer. Real world = mistakes will no longer shut down the engine.=20 I want these suppliers to be successful. I want fewer plane crashes. = But it's not going to happen unless you guys (privately) encourage these = simple changes.=20 This group is making good progress on failure reduction. There are a = handful of ecu changes that will really make a difference. Please = pursue! Question question question.=20 -al wick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 7:10 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... I know Dave or Jon wouldn't phrase it this way but I've already = received a number of messages from others about these two recent = in-flight power failures due to EC2 issues.=20 Jon's was due to a loose mounting nut inside the EC2 that shorted = the main power input filter to ground and burned open both foils from = the 2 power input pins. How lucky was that.=20 Anyway, at the risk of sounding defensive, I thought I'd share my = response to one of them that suggested changing the EC2 case to an = external mount of some sort. I'm sure there are scores of messages on = the way urging me to place switch guards on the cold start switch : ) REPLY Hello ---------- I'm aware of the failure and have the unit here for repair. Like a thousand other critical details in building an aircraft, = it is not possible to explicitly spell out all of them. The precise = method and hardware used to accomplish it are not part of the EC2 or the = instructions. The first paragraph of the installation guide does say the = following: "Needless to say, the quality of installation is just as important = as the quality of the hardware itself. It is not practical to include a = course on proper electrical wiring practices in these installation = instructions, but it is imperative that proper wiring techniques be = employed during the installation of the EC2."=20 It was my thought that avoiding the presence of loose metal objects = inside an electrical device that your life depends on fell into the = category of "needless to say". Nevertheless, a cautionary note might well be worth adding. As = also stated in the first paragraph of the instructions,=20 " I want your project to succeed and your life to be a long and = happy one. " ------=_NextPart_000_0178_01CAC486.389FA9D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just in case its not clear, I think most of us = here=20 appreciate how tough it must be for essentially a one man show to play = such a=20 key role in our pursuits here. Thanks for making my airplane possible=20 Tracy.
 
Mike Wills

Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 9:46 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...

You make a lot of valid points Al.  Don't always = agree on=20 the conclusion but the points are good.   For example, your = idea for=20 the "are you sure?" step for mixture adjustment would hamper the = immediate=20 action of adjusting the mixture as one of the first steps I recommend = when ever=20 any engine running problem occurs.  There is a LONG list of reasons = for=20 doing this and it has saved my bacon on many occasions, especially = during early=20 development.

No argument, there ARE a lot of 'small' (ha!) = changes I=20 could make to improve things.   Cost, complexity and time are = major=20 factors why I don't.  That last one is a biggie.  I spend well = over 40=20 hours a week just trying to keep up with current demands in a business = that I=20 had no intention of getting into and would gladly turn over to someone = else if=20 that were possible.  (I tried that once on a limited basis and it = was a=20 disaster) 

Fundamental changes that affect basic function = and=20 safety are a different matter.  When they come up everything else = gets=20 dropped and the problem is addressed as quickly and completely as I know = how to=20 do.

So yes, what I am offering is only the best I can do with the = time=20 and resources I have available.  It is far from the best that can = be=20 done.  And yes, I know there is the chance that I could be hearing = that=20 line from some grieving widow's lawyer someday.  Another great = aspect of=20 this thing.  Some risks you just have to live with.

Tracy=20 Crook,   RWS

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Al Wick <alwick@juno.com>=20 wrote:
Another dead stick landing. Same = old causes.=20 Fortunately no fatalities....this time.
 
Let's pretend you are the copilot. = You've been=20 flying along for 10 minutes. When the pilot says: "Hey Bob, how about = giving=20 me 150 times as much fuel right now."   You'd say:"WHAT?!! = You are=20 crazy, that will shut down the engine!"
Pilot:" Oops, my bad. O2 and egt's = are normal. My=20 mistake"
 
Does that sound far fetched? Nope. It = happens a=20 couple times a year. Often it's a case where the pilot inadvertently = drives=20 the ecu to super lean condition. Engines suddenly quits. Let's = use your=20 home pc as an example. You tell the pc to delete all files on your = hard drive.=20 It recognizes this is most unusual and could be catastrophic. So it = says:"Are=20 you sure you want to wipe out hard drive? This could be = fatal"
 
Every failure has more than one = cause. Yes, the=20 pilot inadvertently flipped the "cold start" switch when he was = reaching for=20 his gps. Was it Ed last year who inadvertently rotated the mixture to = full=20 lean?  Last year Keith's passenger bumped the ecu mixture = knob while=20 getting in the plane. So, yes, Ed, Keith, and Dave all made the = same=20 mistakes. They placed a switch capable of shutting down the engine in = the=20 wrong area of the instrument panel. End of story? NO!
 
As soon as one of these ECU suppliers = adds the=20 "Are you sure?" logic, then all of these failures disappear. Pretty = simple=20 logic statement. Actually, there are a whole bunch of ways this can be = handled. I had to do this type of programming with industrial plc's = because=20 these same "oops" were so common. Think about this. If engine has been = running=20 for more than 5 minutes, only allow small mixture changes. Never = enough to=20 shut down engine. So let's say that 100 will shut down engine, then we = only=20 allow a change of 20 each minute.
 
I think the ECU providers recognize = builder=20 error. "Whew! Not MY problem."  They don't ask: "Is there = something I can=20 do to save lives?"   If they make these simple changes, then = every=20 single plane is no longer sensitive to these common "oops" scenarios. = So yes,=20 if Dave moves his switch, HE will be safer. But if the ECU = supplier makes=20 this simple programming change, then every single plane will be safer. = Real=20 world mistakes will no longer shut down the engine.
 
I want these suppliers to be = successful. I want=20 fewer plane crashes. But it's not going to happen unless you guys = (privately)=20 encourage these simple changes.
 
This group is making good progress on = failure=20 reduction. There are a handful of ecu changes that will really make a=20 difference. Please pursue! Question question question.
 
 
-al wick
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Crook
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 = 7:10=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Ut-Oh...

I know Dave or Jon wouldn't phrase it this way but = I've=20 already received a number of messages from others about these two = recent=20 in-flight power failures due to EC2 issues.

 Jon's was = due to a=20 loose mounting nut inside the EC2 that shorted the main power input = filter=20 to ground and burned open both foils from the 2 power input = pins.  How=20 lucky was that.

  Anyway, at the risk of sounding = defensive, I=20 thought I'd share my response to one of them that suggested changing = the EC2=20 case to an external mount of some sort.  I'm sure there are = scores of=20 messages on the way urging me to place switch guards on the cold = start=20 switch  : )

REPLY

Hello ----------
  I'm = aware of=20 the failure and have the unit here for repair.

   = Like a=20 thousand other critical details in building an aircraft, it is not = possible=20 to explicitly spell out all of them.  The precise method and = hardware=20 used to accomplish it are not part of the EC2 or the instructions. = The first=20 paragraph of the installation guide does say the following:

"Needless to=20 say, the quality of installation is just as important as the quality = of the=20 hardware itself.  It is not practical to include a = course=20 on proper electrical wiring practices in these installation = instructions,=20 but it is imperative that proper wiring techniques be employed = during the=20 installation of the EC2."

It was my thought that avoiding = the=20 presence of loose metal objects inside an electrical device that = your life=20 depends on fell into the category of  "needless to=20 say".

Nevertheless, a cautionary note might well be worth=20 adding.   As also stated in the first paragraph of the=20 instructions,
" I want = your project=20 to succeed and your life to be a long and happy one. "
 

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