X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao104.cox.net ([68.230.241.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4167149 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 23:29:51 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.42; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo01.cox.net ([70.169.32.71]) by fed1rmmtao104.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100316032916.HDFA16123.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 23:29:16 -0400 Received: from willsPC ([68.105.86.80]) by fed1rmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id tfVF1d00B1k005Q03fVFF1; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 23:29:15 -0400 X-VR-Score: -140.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=9X1BeRvGVdXikaVgI7mHUqmIOlosh/BCISq12UegNM8= c=1 sm=1 a=GkVrOFAuG9wA:10 a=XruvlouZCDbGUgEaRUiNZQ==:17 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=ekHE3smAAAAA:20 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=nUuTZ29dAAAA:8 a=HSglleVFlNEp_F0AAF8A:9 a=V8F3-GGv1LSWH3ht-90A:7 a=4zC5EKLU6tJMQfNVWBfTCVAEPWwA:4 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=1vhyWl4Y8LcA:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=lBbwxYAdaQT6FwIguIkA:9 a=mLPa41bAM4k0mm0lIvQA:7 a=l70FojraHL54cyZ_JpbGaG5cgFoA:4 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=XruvlouZCDbGUgEaRUiNZQ==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <1EBB117862EF41608E266F1C40BFB325@willsPC> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem? Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:29:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_014E_01CAC47E.2D79A270" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_014E_01CAC47E.2D79A270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No flop tubes Mark. From: Mark Steitle=20 Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 7:04 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem? Mike, =20 Did you install flop tubes in your tanks? As I recall, Ed got some = glider experience when one of his flop tubes got hung up on a rivet or = something and while there was plenty of fuel in the tank, the pickup = couldn't get to it. Just a thought.=20 Mark S. On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Mike Wills wrote: Update. There was a little over 7 gallons left in the tank (out of = 15.5 total). I don=92t see how its possible that the pickup could have = sucked air with that much fuel in the tank. The filter was clean. I drained all the fuel from the tank and there = was a couple of tiny pieces of Proseal, but not enough to plug the = pickup. I used compressed air to blow through the pickup then refilled = and drained again. Nothing obvious. So I don=92t have anything = conclusive to blame this on. I'll take David's suggestion and stick a = borescope down in the tank but since its been flushed I don=92t expect = to find anything. I havent tried flying it again. I don=92t want to be = the second rotary RV in as many days to end up on the local news. Mike Wills From: Ed Anderson=20 Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 9:02 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem? Enough to get your heart pumping for sure. Been there {:>) Early in my flying days, I was in a similar type turn and was paying = more attention to the buildings I had my wing tip anchored to than I = should have been. All of a sudden, the engine started unwinding with a = vengeance. I immediately leveled the air plane, where upon the engine = caught again =96 but I was down to the last gallon or less =96 switched = tanks and all was OK. I suspected that perhaps my =93coordinated=94 = turn was not as coordinated as I had thought. Both of my pumps can suck fuel from either tank, so can=92t help you = there. I personally do not favor the one tank- one pump approach due to = the fact if you did lose a pump =96 you could possibly lose access to a = lot (perhaps a tank) of fuel. No problem flying locally perhaps, but a = different story if between the west coast and New Mexico {:>). But, I = realize there are advantages such as not needing a valve to switch = tanks, but similar to having two CPUs for the fuel injectors either one = of which can run the full set of injectors, I prefer both pumps having = access to both tanks. Also, just for the heck of it you might check the tank for water. I = flew into Shady Bend one time with my left tank dry. Sat out through a = few rain shows, took off the next day and landed at Waycross, GA and = filled the left tank and topped of the right one. About 30 minutes out, = I decided to switch to the left tank, within seconds of switching the = engine started surging. Having learned my lesson about switching tanks = on my 12 mile glide a few years ago, I immediately switched back to the = other tank and thankfully, everything returned to normal. I flew a bit = further and go over a suitable air field and switched back to the left = tank, again the surging =96 but I left it on this time an in about 20-30 = seconds the surge disappeared. I thought I might have picked up some bad = fuel =96 but not the case. Yep, you got it =96 should have drain the tanks for water, which I = failed to do that morning. I can=92t prove it was water, but I did = discover my left tank cap was not sealing as it should and I suspect the = empty tank accumulated a cup or less of water. It settled to the bottom = by the time I had flow 30 minutes and when I switched over all I got for = the first 30 seconds or so was watery fuel which the engine did not = like. So be careful =96 Mike. But, then that is what this test phase is all = about =96 find out what might bite you while you are close to home. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 9:49 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] fuel supply problem? Was out boring holes in the sky today trying to accumulate hours - = finally a day off with no rain. About 2 hours into the flight, running = on the left tank, and making a gentle left turn (maybe 20 - 30 degrees = of bank), and the engine lost power. About 2 seconds later the engine = monitor alarmed that the fuel pressure was below limits. By the time the = alarm sounded I had already switched tanks and power was coming back up. = My airplane is set up with 1 pump for each tank, so switching tanks = actually means switching pumps too. Needless to say I returned home immediately on the right tank and the = airplane ran OK all the way back. Once on the ground I did a full power = runup switching tanks repeatedly and everything was fine. I'm not = certain how much fuel is in the left tank, I'm guessing about 5 gallons. = I'll find out tomorrow when I top off the tanks.=20 The only thing I can guess is maybe the fuel in the tank drained away = from the pickup in the turn? The turn was coordinated so in theory the = pickup should have remained submerged. I might have to re-think the fuel = system. Mike Wills __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_014E_01CAC47E.2D79A270 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No flop tubes Mark.

Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 7:04 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply = problem?

Mike, =20

Did you install flop tubes in your tanks?  As I recall, Ed got = some=20 glider experience when one of his flop tubes got hung up on a rivet or = something=20 and while there was plenty of fuel in the tank, the pickup couldn't get = to it.=20  Just a thought. 

Mark S.


On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Mike Wills = <rv-4mike@cox.net>=20 wrote:
Update. There was a little over 7 = gallons left in=20 the tank (out of 15.5 total). I don=92t see how its possible that the = pickup=20 could have sucked air with that much fuel in the tank.
 
The filter was clean. I drained all the fuel = from the=20 tank and there was a couple of tiny pieces of Proseal, but not enough = to plug=20 the pickup. I used compressed air to blow through the pickup then = refilled and=20 drained again. Nothing obvious. So I don=92t have anything conclusive = to blame=20 this on. I'll take David's suggestion and stick a borescope down in = the tank=20 but since its been flushed I don=92t expect to find anything. I havent = tried=20 flying it again. I don=92t want to be the second rotary RV in as many = days to=20 end up on the local news.
 
Mike Wills

Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 9:02 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply = problem?

Enough to = get your=20 heart pumping for sure.  Been there {:>)

 

Early in my = flying=20 days, I was in a similar type turn and was paying more attention to = the=20 buildings I had my wing tip anchored to than I should have been.  = All of=20 a sudden, the engine started unwinding with a vengeance.  I = immediately=20 leveled the air plane, where upon the engine caught again =96 but I = was down to=20 the last gallon or less =96 switched tanks and all was OK.  I = suspected=20 that perhaps my =93coordinated=94 turn was not as coordinated as I had = thought.

 

Both of my = pumps can=20 suck fuel from either tank, so can=92t help you there.  I = personally do not=20 favor the one tank- one pump approach due to the fact if you did lose = a pump =96=20 you could possibly lose access to a lot (perhaps a tank) of = fuel.  No=20 problem flying locally perhaps, but a different story if between the = west=20 coast and New Mexico {:>).  But, I realize there are = advantages such=20 as not needing a valve to switch tanks, but similar to having two CPUs = for the=20 fuel injectors either one of which can run the full set of injectors, = I prefer=20 both pumps having access to both tanks.

 

Also, just = for the=20 heck of it you might check the tank for water.  I flew into Shady = Bend=20 one time with my left tank dry.  Sat out through a few rain = shows, took=20 off the next day and landed at Waycross, GA and filled the left tank = and=20 topped of the right one.  About 30 minutes out, I decided to = switch to=20 the left tank, within seconds of switching the engine started = surging. =20 Having learned my lesson about switching tanks on my 12 mile glide a = few years=20 ago, I immediately switched back to the other tank and thankfully, = everything=20 returned to normal.  I flew a bit further and go over a suitable = air=20 field and switched back to the left tank, again the surging =96 but I = left it on=20 this time an in about 20-30 seconds the surge disappeared. I thought I = might=20 have picked up some bad fuel =96 but not the case.

 

Yep, you = got it =96=20 should have drain the tanks for water, which I failed to do that=20 morning.  I can=92t prove it was water, but I did discover my = left tank cap=20 was not sealing as it should and I suspect the empty tank accumulated = a cup or=20 less of water.  It settled to the bottom by the time I had flow = 30=20 minutes and when I switched over all I got for the first 30 seconds or = so was=20 watery fuel which the engine did not like.

 

So be = careful =96=20 Mike.  But, then that is what this test phase is all about =96 = find out=20 what might bite you while you are close to home.

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW=20 Rotary Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= /P>

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike = Wills
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 = 9:49=20 PM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 fuel supply problem?

 

Was out boring holes = in the sky=20 today trying to accumulate hours - finally a day off with no rain. = About 2=20 hours into the flight, running on the left tank, and making a gentle = left turn=20 (maybe 20 - 30 degrees of bank), and the engine lost power. About 2 = seconds=20 later the engine monitor alarmed that the fuel pressure was below = limits. By=20 the time the alarm sounded I had already switched tanks and power was = coming=20 back up. My airplane is set up with 1 pump for each tank, so switching = tanks=20 actually means switching pumps too.

 

Needless to say I = returned home=20 immediately on the right tank and the airplane ran OK all the way = back. Once=20 on the ground I did a full power runup switching tanks repeatedly and=20 everything was fine. I'm not certain how much fuel is in the left = tank, I'm=20 guessing about 5 gallons. I'll find out tomorrow when I top off = the=20 tanks.

 

The only thing I can = guess is=20 maybe the fuel in the tank drained away from the pickup in the turn? = The turn=20 was coordinated so in theory the pickup should have remained = submerged. I=20 might have to re-think the fuel system.

 

Mike=20 Wills



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


------=_NextPart_000_014E_01CAC47E.2D79A270--