X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.16] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4167039 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 22:41:43 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.16; envelope-from=hoursaway1@comcast.net Received: from omta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.71]) by qmta01.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id tdh51d0061Y3wxoA1eh7z9; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 02:41:07 +0000 Received: from sz0081.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.26.137]) by omta15.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id teh61d0032xV6SL8beh6dH; Tue, 16 Mar 2010 02:41:06 +0000 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 02:41:06 +0000 (UTC) From: hoursaway1@comcast.net To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-ID: <1310349106.15443291268707266272.JavaMail.root@sz0081a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Technology VS risks was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_833486_1233983455.1268707266269" X-Originating-IP: [76.20.183.210] X-Mailer: Zimbra 5.0.19_GA_3172.RHEL5_64 (ZimbraWebClient - IE6 (Win)/5.0.19_GA_3177.RHEL5_64) ------=_Part_833486_1233983455.1268707266269 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My wifes Deville has 24 computers/modules & they all talk to each other =C2= =A0(data line).=C2=A0When you turn the key to start the eng. you are not cr= anking the starter with the switch=C2=A0 (YOU are not autherized!!!=C2=A0)= =C2=A0 =C2=A0The PCM checks all parameters & engages the starter if everyth= ing is ok.=C2=A0 Hows that for control, or lack of.=C2=A0 Hi Ed.=C2=A0=C2= =A0 David R. Cook=C2=A0 RV6A=C2=A0 Rotary=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Ed Anderson" =20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =20 Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 7:07:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Technology VS risks was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...=20 Don=E2=80=99t waste your time trying, Mike =E2=80=93 progress in technology= has always brought risks (particularly in the early days before all the go= ttchas had been identified), the question is whether the overall gain from = employing technology is worth the risks incurred?=C2=A0 For the average dri= ver, anti lock brakes, seat belts, air bags, anti crush cages, crumpable fr= ont ends, and other advancements based on technology had undoubtedly save m= ore lives than they have endangered - by far.=20 =C2=A0 Sure you can always find exceptions =E2=80=93 the individual who liv= ed because they were not wearing seat belts and was thrown from the vehicle= before it went over the cliff=E2=80=93 but then you read the paper and dis= cover how many folks died because the WERE thrown from the vehicle which ro= ll over on them, etc.=C2=A0=20 Having said that, I must admit I am not terribly keen on having computer ch= ips and sensors make life affecting decisions for me =E2=80=93 perhaps beca= use I sort of program them myself {:>).=C2=A0 Its not because I don=E2=80= =99t understand the technology =E2=80=93 its because I do {:>).=C2=A0 But, = no, I=E2=80=99m not about to give up my EC2, nor my EFISM, nor =E2=80=A6. W= ell, you get the idea.=20 Ed=20 Ed Anderson=20 Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered=20 Matthews, NC=20 eanderson@carolina.rr.com=20 http://www.andersonee.com=20 http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html=20 http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW=20 http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm=20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Mike Wills=20 Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 9:29 PM=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...=20 I got in a discussion with a guy at the airport yesterday regarding the Toy= ota drive by wire throttle problem. He's of the opinion that technology has= gone way too far. He want federal regulations that prevent manufacturers f= rom placing electronic systems in throttle, braking, and steering systems. = He concedes that cars now are far safer than they were 30 years ago (where = he is apparently stuck), but in his opinion even one death attributed to "t= oo much technology" is one too many. How do you have an intelligent convers= ation with someone like that?=20 Mike Wills =C2=A0=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 8:39 AM=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...=20 Thanks David,=20 =C2=A0=C2=A0 Both you and Jon are aviators and I knew you guys understood t= he score on this stuff.=C2=A0 It's mostly the non-flyers that think that ev= ery conceivable failure / error mode can and must be eliminated.=C2=A0 Try = yes,=C2=A0 but it will never be 100%.=C2=A0 I'm too embarassed to say how m= any times I've inadvertantly turned off my fuel pump switch.=C2=A0 Must mov= e it soon.=20 BTW, I think it is a tribute to the community of experimental builders and = pilots that so many power out landings end as gracefully as the ones that h= ave been discussed on this list.=C2=A0 Don't know the official stats but my= impression is that only a small fraction of typical GA power out incidents= end this well.=20 Tracy Crook=20 On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 11:04 AM, David Leonard < wdleonard@gmail.com > wro= te:=20 Tracy ,=20 I definately do not consider this a short coming of the EC2.=C2=A0 Though, = I do think that I will cut down the switch to help prevent a recurrence.=C2= =A0 Though I don't think I will ever neglect to check that if something sho= uld happen in the future...=C2=A0 I wonder what else is lurking out there.= =20 --=20 David Leonard=20 Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY=20 http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net=20 http://RotaryRoster.net=20 On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Tracy Crook < tracy@rotaryaviation.com > w= rote:=20 I know Dave or Jon wouldn't phrase it this way but I've already received a = number of messages from others about these two recent in-flight power failu= res due to EC2 issues.=20 =C2=A0Jon's was due to a loose mounting nut inside the EC2 that shorted the= main power input filter to ground and burned open both foils from the 2 po= wer input pins.=C2=A0 How lucky was that.=20 =C2=A0 Anyway, at the risk of sounding defensive, I thought I'd share my re= sponse to one of them that suggested changing the EC2 case to an external m= ount of some sort.=C2=A0 I'm sure there are scores of messages on the way u= rging me to place switch guards on the cold start switch=C2=A0 : )=20 REPLY=20 Hello ----------=20 =C2=A0 I'm aware of the failure and have the unit here for repair.=20 =C2=A0=C2=A0 Like a thousand other critical details in building an aircraft= , it is not possible to explicitly spell out all of them.=C2=A0 The precise= method and hardware used to accomplish it are not part of the EC2 or the i= nstructions. The first paragraph of the installation guide does say the fol= lowing:=20 "Needless to say, the quality of installation is just as important as the q= uality of the hardware itself.=C2=A0 It is not practical to include a cours= e on proper electrical wiring practices in these installation instructions,= but it is imperative that proper wiring techniques be employed during the = installation of the EC2."=20 It was my thought that avoiding the presence of loose metal objects inside = an electrical device that your life depends on fell into the category of=C2= =A0 "needless to say".=20 Nevertheless, a cautionary note might well be worth adding.=C2=A0=C2=A0 As = also stated in the first paragraph of the instructions,=20 " I want your project to succeed and your life to be a long and happy one. = "=20 All the best,=20 Tracy Crook, =C2=A0=C2=A0 RWS=20 =C2=A0=20 On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 2:34 AM, David Leonard < wdleonard@gmail.com > wrot= e:=20 Boy,=C2=A0 word sure gets around these days..=C2=A0=20 short answer... inadvertently hit cold start switch while messing with GPS = and flying at 1000' AGL..=C2=A0 not enough time to troubleshoot...=C2=A0 ha= d to fly plane and find a place to land.=20 Both happy and appalled when the I realized the problem 2 minutes after the= commotion stopped.=C2=A0 The tower must have been plain appalled when I to= ok off again later this afternoon.=20 --=20 David Leonard=20 Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY=20 http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net=20 http://RotaryRoster.net=20 On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Dave < david.staten@gmail.com > wrote:=20 Bill Monroe wrote:=20 Dave=E2=80=99s going to have an interesting story to tell=E2=80=A6=20 http://www.cbs8.com/global/story.asp?s=3D12136229=20 Glad he landed safe..=20 --=20 Homepage: =C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 Archive and UnSub: =C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/= List.html=20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signatur= e database 3267 (20080714) __________=20 The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.=20 http://www.eset.com ------=_Part_833486_1233983455.1268707266269 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= div style=3D'font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>My wifes = Deville has 24 computers/modules & they all talk to each other  (d= ata line). When you turn the key to start the eng. you are not crankin= g the starter with the switch  (YOU are not autherized!!! ) =  The PCM checks all parameters & engages the starter if everythin= g is ok.  Hows that for control, or lack of.  Hi Ed.   = David R. Cook  RV6A  Rotary
----- Original Message -----
Fr= om: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: "Rotary motors i= n aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, March 15, = 2010 7:07:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [FlyRotary] Techno= logy VS risks was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...

Don=E2=80=99t waste y= our time trying, Mike =E2=80=93 progress in technology has always brought r= isks (particularly in the early days before all the gottchas had been ident= ified), the question is whether the overall gain from employing technology = is worth the risks incurred?  For the average driver, anti lock brakes= , seat belts, air bags, anti crush cages, crumpable front ends, and other a= dvancements based on technology had undoubtedly save more lives than they h= ave endangered - by far.

 <= /P>

  Sure you can a= lways find exceptions =E2=80=93 the individual who lived because they were = not wearing seat belts and was thrown from the vehicle before it went over = the cliff=E2=80=93 but then you read the paper and discover how many folks = died because the WERE thrown from the vehicle which roll over on them, etc.=  

 <= /P>

Having said that, I m= ust admit I am not terribly keen on having computer chips and sensors make = life affecting decisions for me =E2=80=93 perhaps because I sort of program= them myself {:>).  Its not because I don=E2=80=99t understand the = technology =E2=80=93 its because I do {:>).  But, no, I=E2=80=99m n= ot about to give up my EC2, nor my EFISM, nor =E2=80=A6. Well, you get the = idea.

 <= /P>

Ed

 <= /P>

 <= /P>

 <= /P>

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 9:29= PM
To: Rotary motors in= aircraft
Subject: [FlyR= otary] Re: Ut-Oh...

 

I got in a discussion with a guy at the airpo= rt yesterday regarding the Toyota drive by wire throttle problem. He's of t= he opinion that technology has gone way too far. He want federal regulation= s that prevent manufacturers from placing electronic systems in throttle, b= raking, and steering systems. He concedes that cars now are far safer than = they were 30 years ago (where he is apparently stuck), but in his opinion e= ven one death attributed to "too much technology" is one too many. How do y= ou have an intelligent conversation with someone like that?

 

Mike Wills 

 

From: Tracy Crook

Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 8:39 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...<= /FONT>

 

Thanks David,
   Both you and Jon are aviato= rs and I knew you guys understood the score on this stuff.  It's mostl= y the non-flyers that think that every conceivable failure / error mode can= and must be eliminated.  Try yes,  but it will never be 100%.&nb= sp; I'm too embarassed to say how many times I've inadvertantly turned off = my fuel pump switch.  Must move it soon.

BTW, I think it is a t= ribute to the community of experimental builders and pilots that so many po= wer out landings end as gracefully as the ones that have been discussed on = this list.  Don't know the official stats but my impression is that on= ly a small fraction of typical GA power out incidents end this well.
Tracy Crook

 

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 11:04 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:

Tracy,

 

I definately do not consider this a short coming of the E= C2.  Though, I do think that I will cut down the switch to help preven= t a recurrence.  Though I don't think I will ever neglect to check tha= t if something should happen in the future...  I wonder what else is l= urking out there.

 

--
David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation.c= om> wrote:

I know Dave or Jon wouldn't phrase it this way but I've a= lready received a number of messages from others about these two recent in-= flight power failures due to EC2 issues.

 Jon's was due to a l= oose mounting nut inside the EC2 that shorted the main power input filter t= o ground and burned open both foils from the 2 power input pins.  How = lucky was that.

  Anyway, at the risk of sounding defensive, I= thought I'd share my response to one of them that suggested changing the E= C2 case to an external mount of some sort.  I'm sure there are scores = of messages on the way urging me to place switch guards on the cold start s= witch  : )

REPLY

Hello ----------
  I'm aware of= the failure and have the unit here for repair.

   Like a = thousand other critical details in building an aircraft, it is not possible= to explicitly spell out all of them.  The precise method and hardware= used to accomplish it are not part of the EC2 or the instructions. The fir= st paragraph of the installation guide does say the following:

"Needless to say, the quality of installation is just as impo= rtant as the quality of the hardware itself.  It is not practical to i= nclude a course on proper electrical wiring practices in these installation= instructions, but it is imperative that proper wiring techniques be employ= ed during the installation of the EC2."

It was my thought that avoi= ding the presence of loose metal objects inside an electrical device that y= our life depends on fell into the category of  "needless to say".
<= BR>Nevertheless, a cautionary note might well be worth adding.   = As also stated in the first paragraph of the instructions,
" I want you= r project to succeed and your life to be a long and happy one. "

All= the best,
Tracy Cr= ook,    RWS
 

 

 

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 2:34 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>= ; wrote:

Boy,  word sure gets around these days.. 
<= BR>short answer... inadvertently hit cold start switch while messing with G= PS and flying at 1000' AGL..  not enough time to troubleshoot... = had to fly plane and find a place to land.

Both happy and appalled = when the I realized the problem 2 minutes after the commotion stopped. = ; The tower must have been plain appalled when I took off again later this = afternoon.

-- <= BR>David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http:/= /RotaryRoster.net

 

On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Dave <david.staten@gmail.com> w= rote:

Bill Monroe wrote:


Dave=E2=80=99s going to= have an interesting story to tell=E2=80=A6

http://www.cbs8.com/g= lobal/story.asp?s=3D12136229

Glad he landed safe..

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSu= b:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List= .html

 

 






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