Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #50364
From: Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:20:46 -0400
To: 'Rotary motors in aircraft' <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Al,

I agree with you to a certain extent, but these “fixes” can become worse than the problem.  Look at Toyota.  That system is so complicated that even the guys who designed and built it don’t understand what the failure mode is.  Airplanes require more training to fly safely than cars do and for damn good reason.  If you are in the pattern and decide to try a power off landing and inadvertently pull the mixture instead of the throttle, what have the certified manufacturers done to prevent the engine from stopping?  In order to install a proper fix, you have to consider every possible scenario.  That is just not possible.  The original reason for the cold start switch (I think) was to act as a choke to richen the mixture on starting.  Then because it was there, it is used in the programming process.  Now most folks seem to use the store button to give primer shots, but the cold start switch can not be easily removed because it is used in programming.  I think a switch guard would help, but nothing can be made foolproof because fools are so damn ingenious.

I don’t think that every time someone makes a boo boo in the cockpit, the suppliers should run off and design some “fix”.  This is different if the problem is internal to the device whereby it doesn’t perform as expected under some standard circumstance.  Like Toyota for instance.

 

Bill B 

 


From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al Wick
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 10:09 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...

Another dead stick landing. Same old causes. Fortunately no fatalities....this time.

 

Let's pretend you are the copilot. You've been flying along for 10 minutes. When the pilot says: "Hey Bob, how about giving me 150 times as much fuel right now."   You'd say:"WHAT?!! You are crazy, that will shut down the engine!"

Pilot:" Oops, my bad. O2 and egt's are normal. My mistake"

 

Does that sound far fetched? Nope. It happens a couple times a year. Often it's a case where the pilot inadvertently drives the ecu to super lean condition. Engines suddenly quits. Let's use your home pc as an example. You tell the pc to delete all files on your hard drive. It recognizes this is most unusual and could be catastrophic. So it says:"Are you sure you want to wipe out hard drive? This could be fatal"

 

Every failure has more than one cause. Yes, the pilot inadvertently flipped the "cold start" switch when he was reaching for his gps. Was it Ed last year who inadvertently rotated the mixture to full lean?  Last year Keith's passenger bumped the ecu mixture knob while getting in the plane. So, yes, Ed, Keith, and Dave all made the same mistakes. They placed a switch capable of shutting down the engine in the wrong area of the instrument panel. End of story? NO!

 

As soon as one of these ECU suppliers adds the "Are you sure?" logic, then all of these failures disappear. Pretty simple logic statement. Actually, there are a whole bunch of ways this can be handled. I had to do this type of programming with industrial plc's because these same "oops" were so common. Think about this. If engine has been running for more than 5 minutes, only allow small mixture changes. Never enough to shut down engine. So let's say that 100 will shut down engine, then we only allow a change of 20 each minute.

 

I think the ECU providers recognize builder error. "Whew! Not MY problem."  They don't ask: "Is there something I can do to save lives?"   If they make these simple changes, then every single plane is no longer sensitive to these common "oops" scenarios. So yes, if Dave moves his switch, HE will be safer. But if the ECU supplier makes this simple programming change, then every single plane will be safer. Real world mistakes will no longer shut down the engine.

 

I want these suppliers to be successful. I want fewer plane crashes. But it's not going to happen unless you guys (privately) encourage these simple changes.

 

This group is making good progress on failure reduction. There are a handful of ecu changes that will really make a difference. Please pursue! Question question question.

 

 

-al wick

----- Original Message -----

From: Tracy Crook

Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 7:10 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...

 

I know Dave or Jon wouldn't phrase it this way but I've already received a number of messages from others about these two recent in-flight power failures due to EC2 issues.

 Jon's was due to a loose mounting nut inside the EC2 that shorted the main power input filter to ground and burned open both foils from the 2 power input pins.  How lucky was that.

  Anyway, at the risk of sounding defensive, I thought I'd share my response to one of them that suggested changing the EC2 case to an external mount of some sort.  I'm sure there are scores of messages on the way urging me to place switch guards on the cold start switch  : )

REPLY

Hello ----------
  I'm aware of the failure and have the unit here for repair.

   Like a thousand other critical details in building an aircraft, it is not possible to explicitly spell out all of them.  The precise method and hardware used to accomplish it are not part of the EC2 or the instructions. The first paragraph of the installation guide does say the following:

"Needless to say, the quality of installation is just as important as the quality of the hardware itself.  It is not practical to include a course on proper electrical wiring practices in these installation instructions, but it is imperative that proper wiring techniques be employed during the installation of the EC2."

It was my thought that avoiding the presence of loose metal objects inside an electrical device that your life depends on fell into the category of  "needless to say".

Nevertheless, a cautionary note might well be worth adding.   As also stated in the first paragraph of the instructions,
" I want your project to succeed and your life to be a long and happy one. "

 

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