X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from outbound-mail.dca.untd.com ([64.136.47.15] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with SMTP id 4166258 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:10:01 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.47.15; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juno.com; s=alpha; t=1268662165; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; l=0; h=Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:Content-Type; b=eDCFmvlLqOOEnaRbz38tlkqso9AJToLJ0H9I9DK3annled/D3Lv74/LnGGg57uG4m O88iw/yZIM+X7Wxxnb/xNm/+B4s+XtFFMBjHuDqyViyaoKJrFGh/VCvTyGHEl/udTv cYuSypTTpx2aYH2SZ0zXs7wUUIWA5+z47L8HQ3Jo= Received: from Penny (c-98-246-117-71.hsd1.or.comcast.net [98.246.117.71]) by smtpout01.dca.untd.com with SMTP id AABF36R6VAMSXNVJ for (sender ); Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:09:23 -0700 (PST) Message-ID: <2348DB767B1246A1A749487599BD8AF5@Penny> From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:09:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_040C_01CAC40E.70BE0CD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18005 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18005 X-UNTD-BodySize: 12475 X-ContentStamp: 30:15:443512178 X-MAIL-INFO:350e03373ade7e13732f4afab75eb76bab4f63df6b8a6a6a674a8b6b572a7ecaf31e7a27aece4fce7fbe6ec7eb9e0b577b1b1bfee70a7abb6fb30e X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkEgNXYX6d3Cl1BrNddvBOhOVVtA+dBHykA== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.171.42.31|smtpout01.dca.untd.com|smtpout01.dca.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_040C_01CAC40E.70BE0CD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another dead stick landing. Same old causes. Fortunately no = fatalities....this time.=20 Let's pretend you are the copilot. You've been flying along for 10 = minutes. When the pilot says: "Hey Bob, how about giving me 150 times as = much fuel right now." You'd say:"WHAT?!! You are crazy, that will shut = down the engine!" Pilot:" Oops, my bad. O2 and egt's are normal. My mistake" Does that sound far fetched? Nope. It happens a couple times a year. = Often it's a case where the pilot inadvertently drives the ecu to super = lean condition. Engines suddenly quits. Let's use your home pc as an = example. You tell the pc to delete all files on your hard drive. It = recognizes this is most unusual and could be catastrophic. So it = says:"Are you sure you want to wipe out hard drive? This could be fatal" Every failure has more than one cause. Yes, the pilot inadvertently = flipped the "cold start" switch when he was reaching for his gps. Was it = Ed last year who inadvertently rotated the mixture to full lean? Last = year Keith's passenger bumped the ecu mixture knob while getting in the = plane. So, yes, Ed, Keith, and Dave all made the same mistakes. They = placed a switch capable of shutting down the engine in the wrong area of = the instrument panel. End of story? NO! As soon as one of these ECU suppliers adds the "Are you sure?" logic, = then all of these failures disappear. Pretty simple logic statement. = Actually, there are a whole bunch of ways this can be handled. I had to = do this type of programming with industrial plc's because these same = "oops" were so common. Think about this. If engine has been running for = more than 5 minutes, only allow small mixture changes. Never enough to = shut down engine. So let's say that 100 will shut down engine, then we = only allow a change of 20 each minute.=20 I think the ECU providers recognize builder error. "Whew! Not MY = problem." They don't ask: "Is there something I can do to save lives?" = If they make these simple changes, then every single plane is no longer = sensitive to these common "oops" scenarios. So yes, if Dave moves his = switch, HE will be safer. But if the ECU supplier makes this simple = programming change, then every single plane will be safer. Real world = mistakes will no longer shut down the engine.=20 I want these suppliers to be successful. I want fewer plane crashes. But = it's not going to happen unless you guys (privately) encourage these = simple changes.=20 This group is making good progress on failure reduction. There are a = handful of ecu changes that will really make a difference. Please = pursue! Question question question.=20 -al wick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 7:10 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... I know Dave or Jon wouldn't phrase it this way but I've already = received a number of messages from others about these two recent = in-flight power failures due to EC2 issues.=20 Jon's was due to a loose mounting nut inside the EC2 that shorted the = main power input filter to ground and burned open both foils from the 2 = power input pins. How lucky was that.=20 Anyway, at the risk of sounding defensive, I thought I'd share my = response to one of them that suggested changing the EC2 case to an = external mount of some sort. I'm sure there are scores of messages on = the way urging me to place switch guards on the cold start switch : ) REPLY Hello ---------- I'm aware of the failure and have the unit here for repair. Like a thousand other critical details in building an aircraft, it = is not possible to explicitly spell out all of them. The precise method = and hardware used to accomplish it are not part of the EC2 or the = instructions. The first paragraph of the installation guide does say the = following: "Needless to say, the quality of installation is just as important as = the quality of the hardware itself. It is not practical to include a = course on proper electrical wiring practices in these installation = instructions, but it is imperative that proper wiring techniques be = employed during the installation of the EC2."=20 It was my thought that avoiding the presence of loose metal objects = inside an electrical device that your life depends on fell into the = category of "needless to say". Nevertheless, a cautionary note might well be worth adding. As also = stated in the first paragraph of the instructions,=20 " I want your project to succeed and your life to be a long and happy = one. " ------=_NextPart_000_040C_01CAC40E.70BE0CD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Another dead stick landing. Same = old causes.=20 Fortunately no fatalities....this time.
 
Let's pretend you are the copilot. = You've been=20 flying along for 10 minutes. When the pilot says: "Hey Bob, how about = giving me=20 150 times as much fuel right now."   You'd say:"WHAT?!! You = are crazy,=20 that will shut down the engine!"
Pilot:" Oops, my bad. O2 and egt's are = normal. My=20 mistake"
 
Does that sound far fetched? Nope. It = happens a=20 couple times a year. Often it's a case where the pilot inadvertently = drives the=20 ecu to super lean condition. Engines suddenly quits. Let's use your = home pc=20 as an example. You tell the pc to delete all files on your hard drive. = It=20 recognizes this is most unusual and could be catastrophic. So it = says:"Are you=20 sure you want to wipe out hard drive? This could be fatal"
 
Every failure has more than one cause. = Yes, the=20 pilot inadvertently flipped the "cold start" switch when he was reaching = for his=20 gps. Was it Ed last year who inadvertently rotated the mixture to full=20 lean?  Last year Keith's passenger bumped the ecu mixture knob = while=20 getting in the plane. So, yes, Ed, Keith, and Dave all made the = same=20 mistakes. They placed a switch capable of shutting down the engine in = the wrong=20 area of the instrument panel. End of story? NO!
 
As soon as one of these ECU suppliers = adds the "Are=20 you sure?" logic, then all of these failures disappear. Pretty simple = logic=20 statement. Actually, there are a whole bunch of ways this can be = handled. I had=20 to do this type of programming with industrial plc's because these same = "oops"=20 were so common. Think about this. If engine has been running for more = than 5=20 minutes, only allow small mixture changes. Never enough to shut down = engine. So=20 let's say that 100 will shut down engine, then we only allow a change of = 20 each=20 minute.
 
I think the ECU providers recognize = builder error.=20 "Whew! Not MY problem."  They don't ask: "Is there something I can = do to=20 save lives?"   If they make these simple changes, then every = single=20 plane is no longer sensitive to these common "oops" scenarios. So yes,=20 if Dave moves his switch, HE will be safer. But if the ECU supplier = makes=20 this simple programming change, then every single plane will be safer. = Real=20 world mistakes will no longer shut down the engine.
 
I want these suppliers to be = successful. I want=20 fewer plane crashes. But it's not going to happen unless you guys = (privately)=20 encourage these simple changes.
 
This group is making good progress on = failure=20 reduction. There are a handful of ecu changes that will really make a=20 difference. Please pursue! Question question question.
 
 
-al wick
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy=20 Crook
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 = 7:10=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Ut-Oh...

I know Dave or Jon wouldn't phrase it this way but I've = already=20 received a number of messages from others about these two recent = in-flight=20 power failures due to EC2 issues.

 Jon's was due to a = loose=20 mounting nut inside the EC2 that shorted the main power input filter = to ground=20 and burned open both foils from the 2 power input pins.  How = lucky was=20 that.

  Anyway, at the risk of sounding defensive, I = thought I'd=20 share my response to one of them that suggested changing the EC2 case = to an=20 external mount of some sort.  I'm sure there are scores of = messages on=20 the way urging me to place switch guards on the cold start = switch  :=20 )

REPLY

Hello ----------
  I'm aware of the = failure and=20 have the unit here for repair.

   Like a thousand = other=20 critical details in building an aircraft, it is not possible to = explicitly=20 spell out all of them.  The precise method and hardware used to=20 accomplish it are not part of the EC2 or the instructions. The first = paragraph=20 of the installation guide does say the following:
"Needless to say,=20 the quality of installation is just as important as the quality of the = hardware itself.  It is not practical to include a = course on=20 proper electrical wiring practices in these installation instructions, = but it=20 is imperative that proper wiring techniques be employed during the=20 installation of the EC2."

It was my thought that avoiding the = presence=20 of loose metal objects inside an electrical device that your life = depends on=20 fell into the category of  "needless to = say".

Nevertheless, a=20 cautionary note might well be worth adding.   As also stated = in the=20 first paragraph of the instructions,
" I want your = project to=20 succeed and your life to be a long and happy one. "
 
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