X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4166092 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:08:26 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=xp8nckQ8chUA:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=ekHE3smAAAAA:20 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=N8B9JuSIAAAA:8 a=nZ9fZhOhAAAA:8 a=nUuTZ29dAAAA:8 a=cHwV7OOgr8ufU_0xzaYA:9 a=urQION3aw5b3WbbAu6kA:7 a=DU19NDIYOpB-QngPfFXcqvCpOYEA:4 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=5zrLeAV0Z70A:10 a=2dHn3GtT1gEA:10 a=1vhyWl4Y8LcA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=iVkDmfvjeKcA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=OqXKfTuNjPH1hdCT:21 a=w92hEKYltBh2oVfR:21 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=izBW0SNamtxYhsDkSisA:9 a=9ycah6W5ICiI49u-wqYA:7 a=s2uLYDQ-v3-HVtxXT3n4mHZ-kUsA:4 a=zoEONlg_fu49F2IH:21 a=kfQBlagbnFn5fl9b:21 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 75.191.186.236 Received: from [75.191.186.236] ([75.191.186.236:4246] helo=computername) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id 94/66-23425-6051E9B4; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:07:51 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" Message-ID: <94.66.23425.6051E9B4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: Technology VS risks was : [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:07:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0060_01CAC40E.39C66510" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcrD3whtNW/F/eMhRZeCAOf2+KZTjwAT3vpg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 In-Reply-To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01CAC40E.39C66510 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't waste your time trying, Mike - progress in technology has always brought risks (particularly in the early days before all the gottchas had been identified), the question is whether the overall gain from employing technology is worth the risks incurred? For the average driver, anti lock brakes, seat belts, air bags, anti crush cages, crumpable front ends, and other advancements based on technology had undoubtedly save more lives than they have endangered - by far. Sure you can always find exceptions - the individual who lived because they were not wearing seat belts and was thrown from the vehicle before it went over the cliff- but then you read the paper and discover how many folks died because the WERE thrown from the vehicle which roll over on them, etc. Having said that, I must admit I am not terribly keen on having computer chips and sensors make life affecting decisions for me - perhaps because I sort of program them myself {:>). Its not because I don't understand the technology - its because I do {:>). But, no, I'm not about to give up my EC2, nor my EFISM, nor .. Well, you get the idea. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 9:29 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... I got in a discussion with a guy at the airport yesterday regarding the Toyota drive by wire throttle problem. He's of the opinion that technology has gone way too far. He want federal regulations that prevent manufacturers from placing electronic systems in throttle, braking, and steering systems. He concedes that cars now are far safer than they were 30 years ago (where he is apparently stuck), but in his opinion even one death attributed to "too much technology" is one too many. How do you have an intelligent conversation with someone like that? Mike Wills From: Tracy Crook Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 8:39 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh... Thanks David, Both you and Jon are aviators and I knew you guys understood the score on this stuff. It's mostly the non-flyers that think that every conceivable failure / error mode can and must be eliminated. Try yes, but it will never be 100%. I'm too embarassed to say how many times I've inadvertantly turned off my fuel pump switch. Must move it soon. BTW, I think it is a tribute to the community of experimental builders and pilots that so many power out landings end as gracefully as the ones that have been discussed on this list. Don't know the official stats but my impression is that only a small fraction of typical GA power out incidents end this well. Tracy Crook On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 11:04 AM, David Leonard wrote: Tracy, I definately do not consider this a short coming of the EC2. Though, I do think that I will cut down the switch to help prevent a recurrence. Though I don't think I will ever neglect to check that if something should happen in the future... I wonder what else is lurking out there. -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Tracy Crook wrote: I know Dave or Jon wouldn't phrase it this way but I've already received a number of messages from others about these two recent in-flight power failures due to EC2 issues. Jon's was due to a loose mounting nut inside the EC2 that shorted the main power input filter to ground and burned open both foils from the 2 power input pins. How lucky was that. Anyway, at the risk of sounding defensive, I thought I'd share my response to one of them that suggested changing the EC2 case to an external mount of some sort. I'm sure there are scores of messages on the way urging me to place switch guards on the cold start switch : ) REPLY Hello ---------- I'm aware of the failure and have the unit here for repair. Like a thousand other critical details in building an aircraft, it is not possible to explicitly spell out all of them. The precise method and hardware used to accomplish it are not part of the EC2 or the instructions. The first paragraph of the installation guide does say the following: "Needless to say, the quality of installation is just as important as the quality of the hardware itself. It is not practical to include a course on proper electrical wiring practices in these installation instructions, but it is imperative that proper wiring techniques be employed during the installation of the EC2." It was my thought that avoiding the presence of loose metal objects inside an electrical device that your life depends on fell into the category of "needless to say". Nevertheless, a cautionary note might well be worth adding. As also stated in the first paragraph of the instructions, " I want your project to succeed and your life to be a long and happy one. " All the best, Tracy Crook, RWS On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 2:34 AM, David Leonard wrote: Boy, word sure gets around these days.. short answer... inadvertently hit cold start switch while messing with GPS and flying at 1000' AGL.. not enough time to troubleshoot... had to fly plane and find a place to land. Both happy and appalled when the I realized the problem 2 minutes after the commotion stopped. The tower must have been plain appalled when I took off again later this afternoon. -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Dave wrote: Bill Monroe wrote: Dave's going to have an interesting story to tell. http://www.cbs8.com/global/story.asp?s=12136229 Glad he landed safe.. -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01CAC40E.39C66510 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Don’t waste your time trying, = Mike – progress in technology has always brought risks (particularly in the = early days before all the gottchas had been identified), the question is whether = the overall gain from employing technology is worth the risks = incurred?  For the average driver, anti lock brakes, seat belts, air bags, anti crush cages, = crumpable front ends, and other advancements based on technology had undoubtedly = save more lives than they have endangered - by = far.

 

  Sure you can always find = exceptions – the individual who lived because they were not wearing seat belts and = was thrown from the vehicle before it went over the cliff– but then = you read the paper and discover how many folks died because the WERE thrown from the = vehicle which roll over on them, etc. 

 

Having said that, I must admit I am = not terribly keen on having computer chips and sensors make life affecting decisions for me – perhaps because I sort of program them myself = {:>).  Its not because I don’t understand the technology – its because = I do {:>).  But, no, I’m not about to give up my EC2, nor my EFISM, nor …. = Well, you get the idea.

 

Ed

 

 

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Sunday, March 14, = 2010 9:29 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Ut-Oh...

 

I got in a discussion with a guy at the airport = yesterday regarding the Toyota drive by wire throttle problem. He's of the opinion that technology has = gone way too far. He want federal regulations that prevent manufacturers from = placing electronic systems in throttle, braking, and steering systems. He = concedes that cars now are far safer than they were 30 years ago (where he is = apparently stuck), but in his opinion even one death attributed to "too much technology" is one too many. How do you have an intelligent = conversation with someone like that?

 

Mike Wills 

 

From: Tracy Crook

Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 8:39 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ut-Oh...

 

Thanks David,
   Both you and Jon are aviators and I knew you guys = understood the score on this stuff.  It's mostly the non-flyers that think that = every conceivable failure / error mode can and must be eliminated.  Try yes,  but it will never be 100%.  I'm too embarassed to say = how many times I've inadvertantly turned off my fuel pump switch.  Must move = it soon.

BTW, I think it is a tribute to the community of experimental builders = and pilots that so many power out landings end as gracefully as the ones = that have been discussed on this list.  Don't know the official stats but my impression is that only a small fraction of typical GA power out = incidents end this well.

Tracy Crook

 

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 11:04 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> = wrote:

Tracy,

 

I definately do not consider this a short coming of the = EC2.  Though, I do think that I will cut down the switch to help prevent a recurrence.  Though I don't think I will ever neglect to check that = if something should happen in the future...  I wonder what else is = lurking out there.

 

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> wrote:

I know Dave or Jon wouldn't phrase it this way but I've already received a number of messages from others about these two recent = in-flight power failures due to EC2 issues.

 Jon's was due to a loose mounting nut inside the EC2 that shorted = the main power input filter to ground and burned open both foils from the 2 = power input pins.  How lucky was that.

  Anyway, at the risk of sounding defensive, I thought I'd share my response to one of them that suggested changing the EC2 case to an = external mount of some sort.  I'm sure there are scores of messages on the = way urging me to place switch guards on the cold start switch  : )

REPLY

Hello ----------
  I'm aware of the failure and have the unit here for repair.

   Like a thousand other critical details in building an = aircraft, it is not possible to explicitly spell out all of them.  The precise = method and hardware used to accomplish it are not part of the EC2 or the = instructions. The first paragraph of the installation guide does say the = following:

"Needless to say, the quality of installation is just as important = as the quality of the hardware itself.  It is not practical to include a = course on proper electrical wiring practices in these installation = instructions, but it is imperative that proper wiring techniques be employed during the installation of the EC2."

It was my thought that avoiding the presence of loose metal objects = inside an electrical device that your life depends on fell into the category = of  "needless to say".

Nevertheless, a cautionary note might well be worth adding.   = As also stated in the first paragraph of the instructions,
" I want your project to succeed and your life to be a long and = happy one. "

All the best,
Tracy Crook, =    RWS
 

 

 

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 2:34 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com> wrote:

Boy,  word sure gets around these days.. 

short answer... inadvertently hit cold start switch while messing with = GPS and flying at 1000' AGL..  not enough time to troubleshoot...  had = to fly plane and find a place to land.

Both happy and appalled when the I realized the problem 2 minutes after = the commotion stopped.  The tower must have been plain appalled when I = took off again later this afternoon.

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

 

On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Dave <david.staten@gmail.com> wrote:

Bill Monroe wrote:


Dave’s going to have an interesting story to tell…

http://www.cbs8.com/global/story.asp?s=3D12136229

Glad he landed safe..

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml

 

 






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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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