X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost05.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.55] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4165783 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 22:25:55 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.55; envelope-from=keltro@att.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; q=dns/txt; d=att.net; s=dkim01; i=keltro@att.net; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1268619955; h=Content-Type: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; bh=Y9SGYu UK6fEy3BEmEZB89+BUQxKonZJn5m8pm02G0Ak=; b=nUcKcCG9cF4SpypB7Brvyn0+v nVNR/xBU5q7b4DaD3XuB8eZwPSPDudWHkChp78rcqFMG9kkt8STExX4gLb0+g== Received: from fwebmail13.isp.att.net ([204.127.221.113]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc05) with SMTP id <20100315022517H0500inok5e>; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 02:25:18 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [204.127.221.113] Received: from [208.114.34.142] by fwebmail13.isp.att.net; Mon, 15 Mar 2010 02:25:16 +0000 From: "Kelly Troyer" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: fuel supply problem? Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 02:25:16 +0000 Message-Id: <031520100225.26878.4B9D9A8B000ADABF000068FE22218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF019D9B040A05@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 2 2009) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_26878_1268619916_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_26878_1268619916_0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, Not totally Cheap but Local Harbor Freight Store has this item for=20 sale for $119.99 until March 25th............ FWIW Find by Keyword:=20=20=20=20=20=20 Find Item Number:=20=20=20=20=20=20 Home Free Catalog Free Retail Flyer=20 Search Order from Printed Catalog About Us Retail Stores Customer Service Inside Track Club Members Security Open an Account Sale Items Shipping Charges, Terms & Conditions Recall Safety Information =20 To place a Phone Order 805-388-3000 Customer Service 1-800-444-3353 9:00am-7:30pm=20 Monday-Friday Eastern Time =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 View more Cen-Tech items=20 Wireless Inspection Camera with 2.4" Color LCD Monitor=20=20 Make easy visual inspections, even in hard-to-reach areas. Mini waterproof camera with 3 ft. flexible extended tube=20 4 ft. night vision range=20 2.4" TFT-LCD (thin film transistor liquid crystal display) wireless color m= onitor with rechargeable lithium ion battery=20 LCD monitor can detach from hand hold for easier viewing=20 Lightweight handheld design to easily find, diagnose and solve problems=20 Requires four AA batteries (sold separately). Monitor dimensions: 3.93" x 2= .75" x 1.18"; Adapter input power: 100-240 volts; Adapter output power: 8 v= olts DC; Color configuration: R.G.B.delta ITEM 66550-1VGA $149.99 Email link to a friend Prices on our website may or may not be current prices in our stores=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20 24 Pack AA Alkaline Batteries=20 =20 Item 92404-3VGA=20 $7.99=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from "Mike Wills" : -----= ---------=20 Thanks David, that=E2=80=99s a good idea! Mike From: hoursaway1@comcast.net=20 Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 1:34 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem? Use a borescope to look into your tanks Mike, a lot easyer, I found a cheap= one with a 1/4" fib. optic wand, slips up into the drain hole even with th= e stiff wire taped to it bent into a 90 deg. curve, someone at the airport = or EAA chapter should have one or your friendly local auto-tech might loan = you one. David R. Cook RV6A Rotary. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:03:42 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem? Tracy, I do have filters between tanks and pumps. I had an issue early on with ju= nk in the filters but never enough to cause any issue. This was just a litt= le construction debris and remnants of some automotive sealant I initially = used to install the access plates (since reinstalled with Proseal). I just = did my first condition inspection and checked the filters about a month ago= and they were clean. But I will check them again. Never have had a problem previously with pressure drop across the filter. T= he problem happened at about the 1.3 hour point in the flight. At the time = I was motoring around at 8500' and at a pretty low power setting - EFISM sa= id fuel flow was about 7.8 GPH. I did run it up to full power on the ground= and couldn=E2=80=99t duplicate. My pickups have a screen and have the Vans required anti-rotation tab rivet= ed to the access cover plate. But I suppose if I cant attribute it to anyth= ing else I should probably pull the tank and make sure the pickup hasn=E2= =80=99t moved. Man that sounds like a lot of work. Mike=20=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 10:35 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem? I had a similar thing happen but the engine would recover when I reduced th= rottle. Problem was clogged filter between tank and pump. At low flow rat= e all was OK but pressure drop across filter at high flow rate caused pump = to cavitate and fuel pressure to drop. Did you try high throttle on ground= test later? But you didn't mention a filter between tank & pump. That has potential pr= oblems as well since it doesn't take much trash to foul up an EFI pump & mi= ght have cleared up after it passed. Do you have only the slots in Van's s= uggested tank pickup between tank & pump? Problem might have been trash go= ing through pump. I guess Ed already mentioned the loose tank pickup problem he had. Tracy On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Mike Wills wrote: I'm pretty sure the turn was coordinated. Knowing that both tanks were appr= oaching (if not below) 5 gallons, it was the first thing I thought of and I= looked at the ball. It was centered. And I'm sure there is going to turn o= ut to be about 5 gallons left in the tank so its hard to understand how thi= s could have been an issue with the pickup uncovering. I just don=E2=80=99t= have a better explanation. If the pump failed I would expect it to stay fa= iled, not work fine on the ground. I didn=E2=80=99t copy it, but my system I believe is the same that Ian Bead= le used. I have 1 pump for each tank. The outputs are T'eed together - chec= k valves built into the pumps prevents crossfeed. Both tanks have return li= nes. The return line from the fuel rail goes through an industrial grade el= ectric valve. I chose this design for a couple of reasons: 1) Operational simplicity. I reasoned that most fuel related problems in fl= ight are due to stupid pilot tricks so wanted a system that was as simple t= o operate as possible. In its original configuration all that was required = to switch tanks was to flip a single toggle switch on the panel which would= energize the appropriate pump and configure the return valve to return fue= l to the tank it came from. This has since been modified slightly to have i= ndividual switches for each pump so both can be on at the same time if need= ed. 2) I had previous experience (bad) with EFI in some project cars before I b= uilt the airplane. I had a couple of fuel pump failures and in researching = found strong recommendations against putting the fuel pump too far from the= fuel tank. These pumps are designed to push fuel, not draw fuel. A design = where both pumps have access to both tanks requires the pumps to be downstr= eam of the fuel selector with several feet of fuel line ahead of the pump. = I wanted to avoid this type of design although it apparently is working fin= e for Ed. My pumps are just inboard of the wing roots literally a couple of= inches from the pickups in the tanks. Tracy's system is mechanically simple but has the potential for pilot error= resulting in pumping fuel overboard if the transfer pump is forgotten and = left on. Yes, I know there are ways to address that. And clearly it works f= or him. I think (thought?) I pretty well understand the pros and cons in my setup. = All things being equal I think before yesterday's incident I would do it th= is way again. If it turns out that the issue was due to uncovering the pick= up (not real sure how to prove that) I'd consider changing to include a hea= der tank with a deep sump to prevent re-occurance. But I don=E2=80=99t thin= k I'd rely on suction to fill the header, think I'd use a low pressure pump= like the typical Facet pump. One thing is for certain. Unlike a carbureted engine which has a little cus= hion due to fuel in a float bowl, the instant fuel pressure drops this engi= ne quits. It's an attention getter. Particularly when you are at the opposi= te corner of your test box from your home base. I ended up flying back abou= t 70 miles hopscotching from field to field. Mike=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 1:53 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem? There is certainly more than one way to design a reliable fuel system =E2= =80=93 each with its pros and cons. I too did not want a six way value for= switching fuel between two tanks and the engine with the ugh return line. = Besides I had already constructed my fuel system pretty much according to = Van=E2=80=99s instructions. So to preclude a return line I came up with my= =E2=80=9Calmost returnless=E2=80=9D system. It uses a =C2=BD pint capacit= y small header tank to return the injector fuel =E2=80=93 the fuel injected= to the engine comes from this header tank thereby creating a =E2=80=9Cvacu= um=E2=80=9D in the tank which pulls fresh fuel from the wing tanks. It has= worked fine for over 10 years. Both fuel pumps draw from this header tank and either tank can feed it and = I have no return lines going back to the tanks. But, Tracy=E2=80=99s approach has shown to work just fine =E2=80=93 not kno= cking it by any means. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Bktrub@aol.com Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 11:43 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem? I just copied Tracy's setup- all fuel is pumped from the right tank, and fu= el is transferred from the left into the right by a Facet pump. I didn't wa= nt to get into having a six port fuel valve in order to get the fuel inject= ion to return to the tank I was using at the time.=20=20=20 It's really simple, and hopefully that means reliable. We'll have to see, a= s this plane is looking for it's airworthiness inspection in the next few m= onths.=20 Brian Trubee __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signatur= e database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_26878_1268619916_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_26878_1268619916_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_26878_1268619916_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,
   Not totally Cheap but Local Harbor Freight Store has this= item for
sale for $119.99 until March 25th............ FWIW
 
3DAutomotive3D"Shop3D"Hand3D"Ai=3D"Power3DOutdoor3DMetalworking3DWelding3DWoodworking3DAuction3DClearance3DSea=3D"View3DCheckout3D"Harbor3D"Harbor
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d



 
-------------- Original message from "Mike Wills" <rv-4mi= ke@cox.net>: --------------

Thanks David, that=E2=80=99s a good idea!<= /DIV>
 
Mike

From: hoursaway1@comcast.net
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 1:34 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem?

Use a bo= rescope to look into your tanks Mike, a lot easyer, I found a cheap one wit= h a 1/4" fib. optic wand, slips up into the drain hole even with the stiff = wire taped to it bent into a 90 deg. curve, someone at the airport or EAA c= hapter should have one or your friendly local auto-tech might loan you one.=   David R. Cook  RV6A Rotary.
----- Original Message ----= -
From: "Mike Wills" <rv-4mike@cox.net>
To: "Rotary motors in a= ircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2= 010 11:03:42 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fu= el supply problem?

Tracy,
 
 I do have filters between tanks and pumps. = I had an issue early on with junk in the filters but never enough to c= ause any issue. This was just a little construction debris and remnants of = some automotive sealant I initially used to install the access plates (sinc= e reinstalled with Proseal). I just did my first condition inspection = and checked the filters about a month ago and they were clean. But I w= ill check them again.
 
Never have had a problem previously with pressure= drop across the filter. The problem happened at about the 1.3 hour po= int in the flight. At the time I was motoring around at 8500' and at a= pretty low power setting - EFISM said fuel flow was about 7.8 GPH. I did r= un it up to full power on the ground and couldn=E2=80=99t duplicate.=
 
My pickups have a screen and have the Vans requir= ed anti-rotation tab riveted to the access cover plate. But I suppose if I = cant attribute it to anything else I should probably pull the tank and make= sure the pickup hasn=E2=80=99t moved. Man that sounds like a lot of work.<= /FONT>
 
Mike  

Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 10:35 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem?

I had a similar thing happen but the engine would recover wh= en I reduced throttle.  Problem was clogged filter between tank and pu= mp.  At low flow rate all was OK but pressure drop across filter at hi= gh flow rate caused pump to cavitate and fuel pressure to drop.  Did y= ou try high throttle on ground test later?

But you didn't mention a = filter between tank & pump.  That has potential problems as well s= ince it doesn't take much trash to foul up an EFI pump & might have cle= ared up after it passed.  Do you have only the slots in Van's suggeste= d tank pickup between tank & pump?  Problem might have been trash = going through pump.

I guess Ed already mentioned the loose tank pick= up problem he had.
Tracy

On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike= @cox.net> wrote:
I'm pretty sure the turn was coordinated. Kn= owing that both tanks were approaching (if not below) 5 gallons, it was the= first thing I thought of and I looked at the ball. It was centered. And I'= m sure there is going to turn out to be about 5 gallons left in the tank so= its hard to understand how this could have been an issue with the pickup u= ncovering. I just don=E2=80=99t have a better explanation. If the pump fail= ed I would expect it to stay failed, not work fine on the ground.
 
I didn=E2=80=99t copy it, but my system I believe= is the same that Ian Beadle used. I have 1 pump for each tank. The outputs= are T'eed together - check valves built into the pumps prevents crossfeed.= Both tanks have return lines. The return line from the fuel rail goes thro= ugh an industrial grade electric valve.
 
I chose this design for a couple of reasons:
1) Operational simplicity. I reasoned that m= ost fuel related problems in flight are due to stupid pilot tricks so wante= d a system that was as simple to operate as possible. In its original confi= guration all that was required to switch tanks was to flip a single toggle = switch on the panel which would energize the appropriate pump and configure= the return valve to return fuel to the tank it came from. This has since b= een modified slightly to have individual switches for each pump so both can= be on at the same time if needed.
2) I had previous experience (bad) with EFI in so= me project cars before I built the airplane. I had a couple of fuel pump fa= ilures and in researching found strong recommendations against putting the = fuel pump too far from the fuel tank. These pumps are designed to push fuel= , not draw fuel. A design where both pumps have access to both tanks requir= es the pumps to be downstream of the fuel selector with several feet of fue= l line ahead of the pump. I wanted to avoid this type of design although it= apparently is working fine for Ed. My pumps are just inboard of the wing r= oots literally a couple of inches from the pickups in the tanks.
 
Tracy's system is mechanically simple but has the= potential for pilot error resulting in pumping fuel overboard if the trans= fer pump is forgotten and left on. Yes, I know there are ways to address th= at. And clearly it works for him.
 
I think (thought?) I pretty well understand the p= ros and cons in my setup. All things being equal I think before yester= day's incident I would do it this way again. If it turns out that the = issue was due to uncovering the pickup (not real sure how to prove that) I'= d consider changing to include a header tank with a deep sump to prevent re= -occurance. But I don=E2=80=99t think I'd rely on suction to fill the heade= r, think I'd use a low pressure pump like the typical Facet pump.
 
One thing is for certain. Unlike a carbureted eng= ine which has a little cushion due to fuel in a float bowl, the instant fue= l pressure drops this engine quits. It's an attention getter. Particularly = when you are at the opposite corner of your test box from your home base. I= ended up flying back about 70 miles hopscotching from field to field.
 
Mike 

Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 1:53 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem?

There is certainly mo= re than one way to design a reliable fuel system =E2=80=93 each with its pr= os and cons.  I too did not want a six way value for switching fuel be= tween two tanks and the engine with the ugh return line.  Besides I ha= d already constructed my fuel system pretty much according to Van=E2=80=99s= instructions.  So to preclude a return line I came up with my =E2=80= =9Calmost returnless=E2=80=9D system.  It uses a =C2=BD pint capacity = small header tank to return the injector fuel =E2=80=93 the fuel injected t= o the engine comes from this header tank thereby creating a =E2=80=9Cvacuum= =E2=80=9D in the tank which pulls fresh fuel from the wing tanks.  It = has worked fine for over 10 years.

 <= /P>

Both fuel pumps draw = from this header tank and either tank can feed it and I have no return line= s going back to the tanks.

 <= /P>

But, Tracy=E2=80=99s = approach has shown to work just fine =E2=80=93 not knocking it by any means= .

 <= /P>

Ed

 <= /P>

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bktrub@aol.com
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 11:43 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply p= roblem?

 

I just copied Tracy'= s setup- all fuel is pumped from the right tank, and fuel is transferred fr= om the left into the right by a Facet pump. I didn't want to get into havin= g a six port fuel valve in order to get the fuel injection to return to the= tank I was using at the time.  

It's really simple, = and hopefully that means reliable. We'll have to see, as this plane is look= ing for it's airworthiness inspection in the next few months.

 =

Brian Trubee<= /FONT>



__________ I= nformation from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3= 267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Anti= virus.

http://www.e= set.com


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W= ireless Inspection Camera with 2.4" Color LCD Monitor
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Make easy visual= inspections, even in hard-to-reach areas.
  • Mini waterproof camera with 3 ft. flexible extended tube=20
  • 4 ft. night vision range=20
  • 2.4" TFT-LCD (thin film transistor liquid crystal display) wireless col= or monitor with rechargeable lithium ion battery=20
  • LCD monitor can detach from hand hold for easier viewing=20
  • Lightweight handheld design to easily find, diagnose and solve problems=

Requires four AA batteries (sold separately). Monitor dimensions: 3.93" x 2.75" x 1.18"; Adapte= r input power: 100-240 volts; Adapter output power: 8 volts DC; Color confi= guration: R.G.B.delta


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