X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-bw0-f226.google.com ([209.85.218.226] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4165767 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 22:05:26 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.218.226; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by bwz26 with SMTP id 26so150946bwz.27 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:04:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=mJZpJ3bGPr7aTmG5xrt203CixU6jBzg+M26CI2de4aQ=; b=jS/btIsjWeYbf9HGRJ7KqtcNtGMBFf0rsQnEqjqz82akcn055kHDyHgLBAsBhWCOIs 4a4KqfyxF+mWs6au9+Jh2Cu78kIDGPcvx3rGiZFW4DU4HRZvJNQyQ/sv3EO8heFVtL0g UPQyylauN4a0irdKBb1zjpfsme/bTwdfjeLVY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=AvEM942Grmwes5ymaW514A+/77tlckIBUSim4en+1furC+Ek5FYeaYgUZNIOhFmm8t JM6N5AW5PvV9EjE+NrgxlIVsZ5bVX8yT+9uvo1OGtT5SDSq6FuBg4wwYqmL+piMWj78x sXAKkmqfvEVwfu6igYbEgHoAtinElorl2+CLU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.48.136 with SMTP id r8mr564637bkf.120.1268618688878; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:04:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 21:04:48 -0500 Message-ID: <5cf132c1003141904r681af914wb292f7a8d804c8b9@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem? From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555b2a24e5b3a0481cd4ea9 --00032555b2a24e5b3a0481cd4ea9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, Did you install flop tubes in your tanks? As I recall, Ed got some glider experience when one of his flop tubes got hung up on a rivet or something and while there was plenty of fuel in the tank, the pickup couldn't get to it. Just a thought. Mark S. On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Mike Wills wrote: > Update. There was a little over 7 gallons left in the tank (out of 15.5 > total). I don=92t see how its possible that the pickup could have sucked = air > with that much fuel in the tank. > > The filter was clean. I drained all the fuel from the tank and there was = a > couple of tiny pieces of Proseal, but not enough to plug the pickup. I us= ed > compressed air to blow through the pickup then refilled and drained again= . > Nothing obvious. So I don=92t have anything conclusive to blame this on. = I'll > take David's suggestion and stick a borescope down in the tank but since = its > been flushed I don=92t expect to find anything. I havent tried flying it > again. I don=92t want to be the second rotary RV in as many days to end u= p on > the local news. > > Mike Wills > > *From:* Ed Anderson > *Sent:* Friday, March 12, 2010 9:02 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem? > > Enough to get your heart pumping for sure. Been there {:>) > > > > Early in my flying days, I was in a similar type turn and was paying more > attention to the buildings I had my wing tip anchored to than I should ha= ve > been. All of a sudden, the engine started unwinding with a vengeance. I > immediately leveled the air plane, where upon the engine caught again =96= but > I was down to the last gallon or less =96 switched tanks and all was OK. = I > suspected that perhaps my =93coordinated=94 turn was not as coordinated a= s I had > thought. > > > > Both of my pumps can suck fuel from either tank, so can=92t help you ther= e. > I personally do not favor the one tank- one pump approach due to the fact= if > you did lose a pump =96 you could possibly lose access to a lot (perhaps = a > tank) of fuel. No problem flying locally perhaps, but a different story = if > between the west coast and New Mexico {:>). But, I realize there are > advantages such as not needing a valve to switch tanks, but similar to > having two CPUs for the fuel injectors either one of which can run the fu= ll > set of injectors, I prefer both pumps having access to both tanks. > > > > Also, just for the heck of it you might check the tank for water. I flew > into Shady Bend one time with my left tank dry. Sat out through a few ra= in > shows, took off the next day and landed at Waycross, GA and filled the le= ft > tank and topped of the right one. About 30 minutes out, I decided to swi= tch > to the left tank, within seconds of switching the engine started surging. > Having learned my lesson about switching tanks on my 12 mile glide a few > years ago, I immediately switched back to the other tank and thankfully, > everything returned to normal. I flew a bit further and go over a suitab= le > air field and switched back to the left tank, again the surging =96 but I= left > it on this time an in about 20-30 seconds the surge disappeared. I though= t I > might have picked up some bad fuel =96 but not the case. > > > > Yep, you got it =96 should have drain the tanks for water, which I failed= to > do that morning. I can=92t prove it was water, but I did discover my lef= t > tank cap was not sealing as it should and I suspect the empty tank > accumulated a cup or less of water. It settled to the bottom by the time= I > had flow 30 minutes and when I switched over all I got for the first 30 > seconds or so was watery fuel which the engine did not like. > > > > So be careful =96 Mike. But, then that is what this test phase is all ab= out > =96 find out what might bite you while you are close to home. > > > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > > http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mike Wills > *Sent:* Friday, March 12, 2010 9:49 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] fuel supply problem? > > > > Was out boring holes in the sky today trying to accumulate hours - finall= y > a day off with no rain. About 2 hours into the flight, running on the lef= t > tank, and making a gentle left turn (maybe 20 - 30 degrees of bank), and = the > engine lost power. About 2 seconds later the engine monitor alarmed that = the > fuel pressure was below limits. By the time the alarm sounded I had alrea= dy > switched tanks and power was coming back up. My airplane is set up with 1 > pump for each tank, so switching tanks actually means switching pumps too= . > > > > Needless to say I returned home immediately on the right tank and the > airplane ran OK all the way back. Once on the ground I did a full power > runup switching tanks repeatedly and everything was fine. I'm not certain > how much fuel is in the left tank, I'm guessing about 5 gallons. I'll fin= d > out tomorrow when I top off the tanks. > > > > The only thing I can guess is maybe the fuel in the tank drained away fro= m > the pickup in the turn? The turn was coordinated so in theory the pickup > should have remained submerged. I might have to re-think the fuel system. > > > > Mike Wills > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > --00032555b2a24e5b3a0481cd4ea9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike,=A0

Did you install flop tubes in your tanks? =A0As= I recall, Ed got some glider experience when one of his flop tubes got hun= g up on a rivet or something and while there was plenty of fuel in the tank= , the pickup couldn't get to it. =A0Just a thought.=A0

Mark S.


On= Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net> wrote:
Update. There was a little over=A07 gallons lef= t in=20 the tank (out of 15.5 total). I don=92t see how its possible that the picku= p could=20 have sucked air with that much fuel in the tank.
=A0
The filter was clean. I drained all the fuel fr= om the=20 tank and there was a couple of tiny pieces of Proseal, but not enough to pl= ug=20 the pickup. I used compressed air to blow through the pickup then refilled = and=20 drained again. Nothing obvious. So I don=92t have anything conclusive to bl= ame=20 this on. I'll take David's suggestion and stick a borescope down in= the tank but=20 since its been flushed I don=92t expect to find anything. I havent tried fl= ying it=20 again. I don=92t want to be the second rotary RV in as many days to end up = on the=20 local news.
=A0
Mike Wills

Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 9:02 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= /div>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem?

Enough to get your= =20 heart pumping for sure.=A0 Been there {:>)

=A0

Early in my flying= =20 days, I was in a similar type turn and was paying more attention to the=20 buildings I had my wing tip anchored to than I should have been.=A0 All of = a=20 sudden, the engine started unwinding with a vengeance. =A0I immediately=20 leveled the air plane, where upon the engine caught again =96 but I was dow= n to=20 the last gallon or less =96 switched tanks and all was OK.=A0 I suspected t= hat=20 perhaps my =93coordinated=94 turn was not as coordinated as I had=20 thought.

=A0

Both of my pumps can= =20 suck fuel from either tank, so can=92t help you there.=A0 I personally do n= ot=20 favor the one tank- one pump approach due to the fact if you did lose a pum= p =96=20 you could possibly lose access to a lot (perhaps a tank) of fuel.=A0 No=20 problem flying locally perhaps, but a different story if between the west c= oast=20 and New Mexico=20 {:>).=A0 But, I realize there are advantages such as not needing a valve= =20 to switch tanks, but similar to having two CPUs for the fuel injectors eith= er=20 one of which can run the full set of injectors, I prefer both pumps having= =20 access to both tanks.

=A0

Also, just for the h= eck=20 of it you might check the tank for water.=A0 I flew into Shady Bend one tim= e=20 with my left tank dry.=A0 Sat out through a few rain shows, took off the ne= xt=20 day and landed at Waycross,=20 GA and filled the left tank and=20 topped of the right one.=A0 About 30 minutes out, I decided to switch to th= e=20 left tank, within seconds of switching the engine started surging.=A0 Havin= g=20 learned my lesson about switching tanks on my 12 mile glide a few years ago= , I=20 immediately switched back to the other tank and thankfully, everything retu= rned=20 to normal.=A0 I flew a bit further and go over a suitable air field and=20 switched back to the left tank, again the surging =96 but I left it on this= time=20 an in about 20-30 seconds the surge disappeared. I thought I might have pic= ked=20 up some bad fuel =96 but not the case.

=A0

Yep, you got it =96= =20 should have drain the tanks for water, which I failed to do that morning.= =A0=20 I can=92t prove it was water, but I did discover my left tank cap was not s= ealing=20 as it should and I suspect the empty tank accumulated a cup or less of=20 water.=A0 It settled to the bottom by the time I had flow 30 minutes and wh= en=20 I switched over all I got for the first 30 seconds or so was watery fuel wh= ich=20 the engine did not like.

=A0

So be careful =96=20 Mike.=A0 But, then that is what this test phase is all about =96 find out w= hat=20 might bite you while you are close to home.

=A0

From:<= font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma">=20 Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent= : Friday, March 12, 2010 9:49=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in a= ircraft
Subject: [FlyRota= ry] fuel supply=20 problem?

=A0

Was out boring holes in the sky=20 today trying to accumulate hours - finally a day off with no rain. About 2 = hours=20 into the flight, running on the left tank, and making a gentle left turn (m= aybe=20 20 - 30 degrees of bank), and the engine lost power. About 2 seconds later = the=20 engine monitor alarmed that the fuel pressure was below limits. By the time= the=20 alarm sounded I had already switched tanks and power was coming back up. My= =20 airplane is set up with 1 pump for each tank, so switching tanks actually m= eans=20 switching pumps too.

=A0

Needless to say I returned home=20 immediately on the right tank and the airplane ran OK all the way back. Onc= e on=20 the ground I did a full power runup switching tanks repeatedly and everythi= ng=20 was fine. I'm not certain how much fuel is in the left tank, I'm gu= essing about=20 5 gallons.=A0I'll find out tomorrow when I top off the tanks.=20

=A0

The only thing I can guess is=20 maybe the fuel in the tank drained away from the pickup in the turn? The tu= rn=20 was coordinated so in theory the pickup should have remained submerged. I m= ight=20 have to re-think the fuel system.

=A0

Mike=20 Wills



__________ Information from ESET NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

<= a href=3D"http://www.eset.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.eset.com


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