Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #50310
From: Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem?
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:03:42 -0800
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Tracy,
 
 I do have filters between tanks and pumps. I had an issue early on with junk in the filters but never enough to cause any issue. This was just a little construction debris and remnants of some automotive sealant I initially used to install the access plates (since reinstalled with Proseal). I just did my first condition inspection and checked the filters about a month ago and they were clean. But I will check them again.
 
Never have had a problem previously with pressure drop across the filter. The problem happened at about the 1.3 hour point in the flight. At the time I was motoring around at 8500' and at a pretty low power setting - EFISM said fuel flow was about 7.8 GPH. I did run it up to full power on the ground and couldn’t duplicate.
 
My pickups have a screen and have the Vans required anti-rotation tab riveted to the access cover plate. But I suppose if I cant attribute it to anything else I should probably pull the tank and make sure the pickup hasn’t moved. Man that sounds like a lot of work.
 
Mike  

Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 10:35 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem?

I had a similar thing happen but the engine would recover when I reduced throttle.  Problem was clogged filter between tank and pump.  At low flow rate all was OK but pressure drop across filter at high flow rate caused pump to cavitate and fuel pressure to drop.  Did you try high throttle on ground test later?

But you didn't mention a filter between tank & pump.  That has potential problems as well since it doesn't take much trash to foul up an EFI pump & might have cleared up after it passed.  Do you have only the slots in Van's suggested tank pickup between tank & pump?  Problem might have been trash going through pump.

I guess Ed already mentioned the loose tank pickup problem he had.
Tracy

On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net> wrote:
I'm pretty sure the turn was coordinated. Knowing that both tanks were approaching (if not below) 5 gallons, it was the first thing I thought of and I looked at the ball. It was centered. And I'm sure there is going to turn out to be about 5 gallons left in the tank so its hard to understand how this could have been an issue with the pickup uncovering. I just don’t have a better explanation. If the pump failed I would expect it to stay failed, not work fine on the ground.
 
I didn’t copy it, but my system I believe is the same that Ian Beadle used. I have 1 pump for each tank. The outputs are T'eed together - check valves built into the pumps prevents crossfeed. Both tanks have return lines. The return line from the fuel rail goes through an industrial grade electric valve.
 
I chose this design for a couple of reasons:
1) Operational simplicity. I reasoned that most fuel related problems in flight are due to stupid pilot tricks so wanted a system that was as simple to operate as possible. In its original configuration all that was required to switch tanks was to flip a single toggle switch on the panel which would energize the appropriate pump and configure the return valve to return fuel to the tank it came from. This has since been modified slightly to have individual switches for each pump so both can be on at the same time if needed.
2) I had previous experience (bad) with EFI in some project cars before I built the airplane. I had a couple of fuel pump failures and in researching found strong recommendations against putting the fuel pump too far from the fuel tank. These pumps are designed to push fuel, not draw fuel. A design where both pumps have access to both tanks requires the pumps to be downstream of the fuel selector with several feet of fuel line ahead of the pump. I wanted to avoid this type of design although it apparently is working fine for Ed. My pumps are just inboard of the wing roots literally a couple of inches from the pickups in the tanks.
 
Tracy's system is mechanically simple but has the potential for pilot error resulting in pumping fuel overboard if the transfer pump is forgotten and left on. Yes, I know there are ways to address that. And clearly it works for him.
 
I think (thought?) I pretty well understand the pros and cons in my setup. All things being equal I think before yesterday's incident I would do it this way again. If it turns out that the issue was due to uncovering the pickup (not real sure how to prove that) I'd consider changing to include a header tank with a deep sump to prevent re-occurance. But I don’t think I'd rely on suction to fill the header, think I'd use a low pressure pump like the typical Facet pump.
 
One thing is for certain. Unlike a carbureted engine which has a little cushion due to fuel in a float bowl, the instant fuel pressure drops this engine quits. It's an attention getter. Particularly when you are at the opposite corner of your test box from your home base. I ended up flying back about 70 miles hopscotching from field to field.
 
Mike 

Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 1:53 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem?

There is certainly more than one way to design a reliable fuel system – each with its pros and cons.  I too did not want a six way value for switching fuel between two tanks and the engine with the ugh return line.  Besides I had already constructed my fuel system pretty much according to Van’s instructions.  So to preclude a return line I came up with my “almost returnless” system.  It uses a ½ pint capacity small header tank to return the injector fuel – the fuel injected to the engine comes from this header tank thereby creating a “vacuum” in the tank which pulls fresh fuel from the wing tanks.  It has worked fine for over 10 years.

 

Both fuel pumps draw from this header tank and either tank can feed it and I have no return lines going back to the tanks.

 

But, Tracy’s approach has shown to work just fine – not knocking it by any means.

 

Ed

 


From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bktrub@aol.com
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 11:43 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: fuel supply problem?

 

I just copied Tracy's setup- all fuel is pumped from the right tank, and fuel is transferred from the left into the right by a Facet pump. I didn't want to get into having a six port fuel valve in order to get the fuel injection to return to the tank I was using at the time.  

It's really simple, and hopefully that means reliable. We'll have to see, as this plane is looking for it's airworthiness inspection in the next few months.

 

Brian Trubee



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