X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-qy0-f174.google.com ([209.85.221.174] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.0) with ESMTP id 4061224 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 02 Jan 2010 15:19:07 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.174; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qyk4 with SMTP id 4so5942767qyk.7 for ; Sat, 02 Jan 2010 12:18:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=G13RsLqOIwB8xUsGD10i89N5EHbo5IcQsaKqL+gaTSE=; b=ePJxmdJmqaz5QTSpEtdccONJ0oWJuV0z/D8P3cqZ13fYx0cx9tVIIIGL4lbCrruw/E Tgm1LHC/ZJ4mgFx+xyde02t2Ynq9XpMf4eIc8MKGfN03zFzQL6eJ8YNdKVYeQJ/grwPa p2ComRF5flXNYh41bnOTnxdmDZFVFVIVleBSE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=W5I0gMYloNF1LzHp6/3vMgHLXgoayxOtedbXvTZ9dC0/8IWHZErq70oc4JuaTpEByQ 9qbm+4ISCFoR6e6U2/JECFqyPopxDib+P0vHuFCxxT9uwEl4GlKNx5JGsyx5UcOQnlVA luQfAB5soVERVX5eAQ3HSfH8xOnYXLoS9JYYg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.17.215 with SMTP id t23mr10282781qaa.166.1262463512040; Sat, 02 Jan 2010 12:18:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 15:18:32 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5ef5987f23243969 Message-ID: <1b4b137c1001021218s5d4592e1r92efbcc49900fa00@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f88ce9b2d549c047c3431cd --00c09f88ce9b2d549c047c3431cd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can't really know what the whole story is on Mike's engine characteristic= s (a lot of it depends on how the EC2 is set up, tuned and operated) but keep in mind that the EC2/3 is an open loop system with none of the benefits of feedback from the O2 sensor. It was never intended to be a FADEC type single lever power control that many expect. It was assumed from the start that airplane builders would be familiar with mixture control requirements of aircraft engines so would not mind similar requirements when running EFI in an experimental. In a typical GA aircraft, it is normal to set the mixture to rich (best power) on takeoff and climb-out, then lean the mixture in cruise for better fuel economy. It can be leaned even more at lower power settings (ie in descent) to eek out the last MPG and I do that myself out of habit. But when it is time to land, it is altogether normal (and necessary) to set the mixture back to rich when entering the pattern. If not, you can fully expect the engine to sputter a bit if the throttle is advanced for a go around. Tracy Crook On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Bill Bradburry wr= ote: > Maybe so, but it seems no farther than it is in the car and that has to > work quicker than it does in our app. Cars don=92t go all squirrely when= you > coast down a long hill??? We all need broad band sensors so we can tell > what is really going on. I am hoping that Ed will get upset by all this = and > build one we can buy from him for about a buck! :>) > > When can we expect the prototype, Ed?? > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mike Wills > *Sent:* Saturday, January 02, 2010 12:16 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year > > My exhaust header is an equal length type with 28" inch primaries into a = 2 > -> 1 merge collector. The O2 sensor is threaded into the collector so I > estimate it is about 36" from the exhaust port. It usually takes about a > minute for the readings to settle down after a cold start, but I've alway= s > assumed that they were accurate - even at idle. Maybe that is an incorrec= t > assumption. > > > > Mike > > > > > *From:* Bill Bradburry > > *Sent:* Saturday, January 02, 2010 6:48 AM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year > > > > Happy New Year everybody! > > > > Mike, > > How far from the exhaust ports is your O2 sensor located? Does anyone kn= ow > what the minimum temp is for the O2 sensor? 800 degrees? > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Ed Anderson > *Sent:* Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:31 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year > > Happy New Year to you, Mike > > > > Wow. I=92ll bet you are glad to be in a different year and glad the old = one > gone. > > > > I noted your comment on the lean/rich possible O2 cause. Do you have a > heated (3-4 wire) O2 sensor or an unheated one?? > > > > Ed > > > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > > http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mike Wills > *Sent:* Friday, January 01, 2010 9:43 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] first flight of the new year > > > > Hope the holidays are treating you all well. Things are kind of slow on t= he > list this week. So figured I'd get things going. > > > > I havent flown for almost 2 months. First my nephew's accident (he's > recovering amazingly well). Then travel for work. Then had to do an annua= l > on the airplane. Finally, had surgery to remove my appendix and gall > bladder. Been a busy couple of months. > > > > But I'm feeling pretty good now, the airplane is ready for its first flig= ht > after the annual, and today was a spectacular day here with clear blue sk= y, > unlimited visibility, light breeze, and temps in the mid 60s. I resolved = a > number of minor issues during the annual, including the gas smell that I'= ve > been living with for a while now. Found my left tank vent line was loose > where it penetrates the bottom of the fuselage so was venting into the > cockpit. The smell is now completely gone. > > > > Also found a solution to a problem I've been noticing since I've started > flying further from the airport. I'd noted on previous flights when > returning to the airport with a long low power descent that the engine ru= ns > quite lean as I enter the pattern requiring the mixture knob to be turned > full rich. On a couple of occasions I've had some misfiring as I turn fin= al > - quite an attention getter! Today I realized the problem was a non-probl= em, > in other words operator error. While descending (and for that matter, > frequently at other times) I tweak the mixture based on the mixture monit= or > reading. Today I ignored the monitor and just left the mixture alone whic= h > worked just fine. I think during prolonged low power descents the O2 sens= or > cools off and provides an inaccurate reading. The occasional misfire was = the > result of running too rich (the mixture monitor indicated mid range > readings). > > > > So todays flight was trouble free and gets me an hour closer to the end o= f > phase 1. 18 hours down, 22 to go. > > > > Mike Wills > > RV-4 N144MW > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > --00c09f88ce9b2d549c047c3431cd Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can't really know what the whole story is on Mike's engine charac= teristics (a lot of it depends on how the EC2 is set up, tuned and operated= ) but keep in mind that the EC2/3 is an open loop system with none of the b= enefits of feedback from the O2 sensor.=A0 It was never intended to be a FA= DEC type single lever power control that many expect.=A0

It was assumed from the start that airplane builders would be familiar = with mixture control requirements of aircraft engines so would not mind sim= ilar requirements when running EFI in an experimental.=A0=A0 In a typical G= A aircraft, it is normal to set the mixture to rich (best power)=A0 on take= off and climb-out, then lean the mixture in cruise for better fuel economy.= =A0 It can be leaned even more at lower power settings (ie in descent) to e= ek out the last MPG and I do that myself out of habit.=A0=A0 But when it is= time to land, it is altogether normal (and necessary) to set the mixture b= ack to rich when entering the pattern.=A0 If not, you can fully expect the = engine to sputter a bit if the throttle is advanced for a go around.

Tracy Crook

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 2:= 01 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Maybe so, but it seems no farther than it is in the = car and that has to work quicker than it does in our app.=A0 Cars don=92t go all squirrely when you coast down a long hill???=A0 We all need broad band sensors so we can tell what is really going on.=A0 I am hoping that Ed will get upset by all this and build one we can buy from him for about a buck!=A0=A0 :>)

When can we expect the prototype, Ed??=

=A0

Bill B=A0

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Saturday, January 02= , 2010 12:16 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: f= irst flight of the new year

My exhaust header is an equal length t= ype with 28" inch primaries into a 2 -> 1 merge collector. The O2 sensor is threaded = into the collector so I estimate it is about 36" from the exhaust port. It usually takes about a minute for the readings to settle down after a cold start, but I've always assumed that they were accurate - even at idle. = Maybe that is an incorrect assumption.

=A0

Mike<= /font>


=A0

<= span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">Fro= m: Bill Bradburry

<= span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">Sen= t: Saturday, January 02, 2010 6:48 AM

<= span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">To:= Rotary motors in aircraft

<= span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">Sub= ject: [FlyRotary] Re: first flight of the new year

=A0

Happy New Year everybody!

=A0

Mike,

How far from the exhaust ports is your O2 sensor loc= ated?=A0 Does anyone know what the minimum temp is for the O2 sensor?=A0 800 degrees?

=A0

Bill B=A0

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Saturday, January 02= , 2010 8:31 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: f= irst flight of the new year

Happy New Year= to you, Mike

=A0

Wow.=A0 I=92ll= bet you are glad to be in a different year and glad the old one gone.

=A0

I noted your c= omment on the lean/rich possible O2 cause.=A0 Do you have a heated (3-4 wire) O2 sensor or an unheated one??

=A0

Ed

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Friday, January 01, = 2010 9:43 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] first= flight of the new year

=A0

Hope the holidays are treating you all= well. Things are kind of slow on the list this week. So figured I'd get things going.

=A0

I havent flown for almost 2 months. Fi= rst my nephew's accident (he's recovering amazingly well). Then travel for work. Then h= ad to do an annual on the airplane. Finally, had surgery to remove my appendix and g= all bladder. Been a busy couple of months.

=A0

But I'm feeling pretty good now, t= he airplane is ready for its first flight after the annual, and today was a spectacular day here wit= h clear blue sky, unlimited visibility, light breeze, and temps in the mid 60= s. I resolved a number of minor issues during the annual, including the gas smel= l that=A0I've been living with for a while now. Found my left tank vent l= ine was loose where it penetrates the bottom of the fuselage so was venting int= o the cockpit. The smell is now completely gone.

=A0

Also found a solution to a problem I&#= 39;ve been noticing since I've started flying further from the airport. I'd noted on pr= evious flights when returning to the airport with a long low power descent that th= e engine runs quite lean as I enter the pattern requiring the mixture knob to= be turned full rich. On a couple of occasions I've had some misfiring as I= turn final - quite an attention getter! Today I realized the problem was a non-problem, in other words operator error. While descending (and for that matter, frequently at other times) I tweak the mixture based on the mixture monitor reading. Today I ignored the monitor and just left the mixture alon= e which worked just fine. I think during prolonged=A0low power descents the=A0O2 sensor cools off and provides an inaccurate reading. The occasiona= l misfire was the result of running too rich (the mixture monitor indicated m= id range readings).

=A0

So todays flight was trouble free and = gets me an hour closer to the end of phase 1. 18 hours down, 22 to go.

=A0

Mike Wills

RV-4 N144MW=A0=A0



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signatur= e database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


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