X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.15) with ESMTP id 3770232 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:08:29 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.40; envelope-from=gregw@onestopdesign.biz Received: from OMTA04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.35]) by QMTA04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id KPn91c0020lTkoCA4T7uL3; Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:07:54 +0000 Received: from osd1 ([24.6.75.252]) by OMTA04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id KT7u1c0065ScAtC8QT7uWL; Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:07:54 +0000 Message-ID: <23705BA56E05425AB8ECC077FF737B6D@yosemite.onestopdesign.biz> From: "Greg Ward" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Belly Scoop Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:19:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0311_01CA0B6E.4F742400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0311_01CA0B6E.4F742400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the input Al. Good idea about the thread. We have about = 1/2" of silicone sheet stock between the radiator and the fus. There is = some room for flex and movement, although not sure how much, will check. Regards Greg ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Wick=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 7:08 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Belly Scoop I see now. I like the tie offs. It appears that takes care of the x = and y movement. Nice job.=20 Now, that begs the question about z axis. I did a quick calc (could be = wrong), it looks like the two ends of each tube will lengthen by 1/4" if = you go from freezing to warm engine. Nothing you can do to stop the = movement, but perhaps you can reduce the effect. It will push and pull = rad. So if rad mounted too firmly, you have risk. Normally hose ends are = longer to absorb this movement. You might be ok, but I'd change it. Then = there's the bending moment where your rad tube turns. I'd add another = hose just past bend, say 1 ft long or so. This makes your design = insensitive to expansion, vibration. Adds a big safety factor. Finally, you are all done. Then it's time to assume you overlooked = something that will eventually fatigue the tubing. So you super glue = some pieces of thread from tubing to fuselage. If thread breaks, you = have advance notice of fatigue failure down the road.=20 When I do creative stuff, similar to what you've done, I force myself = to sit back and say: "It's going to fail. Now, where and why?". "What = action will reduce risk?" Computer monitoring of coolant pressure is = good one, as pressure will drop long before you run out of coolant.=20 Good job venting rad btw.=20 -al wick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Greg Ward=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:20 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Belly Scoop You're right to an extent Al. We are going flex from the oil cooler = to the exterior of the scoop, rigid to the entrance of the cowling, and = flex to the engine. We have flex at the radiator connections, rigid to = the cowling, and flex to the engine. Everything is tied off, just not = apparent in these images. Greg ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Wick=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:58 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Belly Scoop If I'm seeing pics correct, you have hard lines going from one = component to another(oil lines). This is high risk. Makes the = installation sensitive to fatigue failures, differential expansion, = resonance. Take a look at your car, you'll find almost all hard lines = terminated with flexible hose (like your rad lines).=20 Even if you have flexible hose, you need to plan on tying the = lines every few inches to control vibration. The hardlines will become = "S" shaped during flight.=20 If I'm seeing wrong, or you have already planned this = stuff...........never mind. -al wick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Greg Ward=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:36 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Fw: Belly Scoop Couple of more shots. Greg Ward Lancair 20B in progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Greg Ward=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 8:48 PM Subject: Belly Scoop Hi Greg, I am anxious to see what you get on the dyno with your engine! = It should be a screamer! What is the opening size of the belly scoop = and where did you get the scoop? I am thinking of something similar = with my FG. How do you direct the air inside the scoop to go over both = the oil and water exchangers? How do you control the cowl flap? You = said manually??? How? =20 Bill B ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0311_01CA0B6E.4F742400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the input Al.  Good idea = about the=20 thread.  We have about 1/2" of silicone sheet stock between the = radiator=20 and the fus.  There is some room for flex and movement, although = not sure=20 how much, will check.
Regards
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al Wick =
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 = 7:08=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: = Belly=20 Scoop

I see now. I like the tie offs. It = appears that=20 takes care of the x and y movement. Nice job.
 
Now, that begs the question about z = axis. I did a=20 quick calc (could be wrong), it looks like the two ends of each tube = will=20 lengthen by 1/4" if you go from freezing to warm engine. Nothing you = can do to=20 stop the movement, but perhaps you can reduce the effect. It will push = and=20 pull rad. So if rad mounted too firmly, you have risk. Normally hose = ends are=20 longer to absorb this movement. You might be ok, but I'd change it. = Then=20 there's the bending moment where your rad tube turns. I'd add another = hose=20 just past bend, say 1 ft long or so. This makes your design = insensitive to=20 expansion, vibration. Adds a big safety factor.
 
Finally, you are all done. Then it's = time to=20 assume you overlooked something that will eventually fatigue the = tubing. So=20 you super glue some pieces of thread from tubing to fuselage. If = thread=20 breaks, you have advance notice of fatigue failure down the road.=20
 
When I do creative stuff, similar to = what you've=20 done, I force myself to sit back and say: "It's going to fail. Now, = where and=20 why?". "What action will reduce risk?" Computer monitoring of coolant = pressure=20 is good one, as pressure will drop long before you run out of coolant. =
 
Good job venting rad btw. =
 
-al wick
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Greg=20 Ward
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, = 2009 11:20=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: = Belly=20 Scoop

You're right to an extent Al.  We = are going=20 flex from the oil cooler to the exterior of the scoop, rigid to the = entrance=20 of the cowling, and flex to the engine.  We have flex at the = radiator=20 connections, rigid to the cowling, and flex to the engine.  = Everything=20 is tied off, just not apparent in these = images.
Greg
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Al = Wick
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, = 2009 10:58=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Fw: Belly=20 Scoop

If I'm seeing pics correct, you = have hard=20 lines going from one component to another(oil lines). This is high = risk.=20 Makes the installation sensitive to fatigue failures, differential = expansion, resonance. Take a look at your car, you'll find almost = all hard=20 lines terminated with flexible hose (like your rad lines). =
 
Even if you have flexible hose, = you need to=20 plan on tying the lines every few inches to control vibration. The = hardlines will become "S" shaped during flight.
 
If I'm seeing wrong, or you have = already=20 planned this stuff...........never mind.
 
-al wick
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Greg Ward
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, = 2009=20 10:36 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Fw: = Belly=20 Scoop

 
 
Couple of more = shots.
Greg Ward
Lancair 20B in = progress
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Bill Bradburry =
To: Greg Ward =
Sent: Wednesday, July = 22, 2009=20 8:48 PM
Subject: Belly = Scoop

Hi=20 Greg,

I am anxious to = see what=20 you get on the dyno with your engine!  It should be a=20 screamer!  What is the opening size of the belly scoop = and where=20 did you get the scoop?  I am thinking of something = similar with=20 my FG.  How do you direct the air inside the scoop to go = over=20 both the oil and water exchangers?  How do you control = the cowl=20 flap?  You said manually??? = How?

 

Bill=20 B

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Homepage:  = http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and=20 UnSub:  =20 = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

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