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Message-ID: <0126AC6C801B4B4487F634DBEBAB4B0A@wills>
From: "Mike Wills" <rv-4mike@cox.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
References: <list-3733219@logan.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Consistant progress...not sure how to act?
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 20:43:43 -0700
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Bill,

At idle - 1700/14.5" - 15" - the mixture was at stoich. Anytime I tried to 
reduce idle further the engine would become erratic and quit. It was so 
erratic that I could not determine if it was lean or rich by looking at the 
mixture gauge. Too much latency in the response. Ultimately it was a matter 
of trial and error to finally get things sorted somewhat at lower settings. 
The real solution ultimately to my tuning issues was installation of the 
EFISM - an EM2 would have served equally well. But I held out for a long 
time thinking I should have been able to tune the thing with the mixture 
gauge, MP, EGTs, and a tach. My stubbornness probably set me back a couple 
of months.

Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 8:40 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Consistant progress...not sure how to act?


> Mike,
> Do you recall was your idle way rich or way lean when you were getting 
> high
> MP?  Chris just installed larger injectors so what you are saying is a
> possibility.
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
> Behalf Of Mike Wills
> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:15 PM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Consistant progress...not sure how to act?
>
> Bill,
>
> I beg to differ. When I first started to tune my engine about a year ago I
> had similar indications. Best I could do was about 1700 RPM and about 
> 14.5"
> to 15". Attempting anything below this the engine refused to run. I spent
> many hours trying to find the vacuum leak. There was no vacuum leak. My
> problem was that below this point my engine simply wouldnt idle because 
> the
> MCT was too far out of whack. Once I was completely convinced that there 
> was
> no vacuum leak I went back through my tuning procedure repeatedly and
> finally got a decent idle down around 1500 RPM and 13". My EC2 is one of 
> the
> oldest around, did not have an EM2 (Tracy wasnt making a monitor when I
> built mine), and no auto tune.
>
> Some time after my first flight I knew there was still more tuning to do 
> so
> bit the bullet and bought one of Ed's EFISM. I was shocked when I was able
> to actually see the MCT contents at how poorly my MCT was programmed after
> all of my careful and repeated efforts to get it right. And yet it ran 
> well
> enough that I was comfortable flying it.
>
> After more tuning using the EFISM my idle is now at about 1300 and about
> 11". It runs smooth at this setting and accepts throttle with no burps or
> hiccups. Finally seem to have cured my staging hiccup by setting my 
> staging
> point at 18" and very carefully tuning the MCT locations at 17.5" and 18"
> for a smooth transition. I still think the MCT could be improved, but it's
> certainly on par with the carbureted Lyc I used to fly in my RV-6A.
>
> I'm not saying that you are wrong in Chris' case, but a vacuum leak is not
> necessarily the only possibility.
>
> Mike Wills
> RV-4 N144MW
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>
> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 5:49 AM
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Consistant progress...not sure how to act?
>
>
>> Chris,
>> If you are idling at 15 inches, you have a leak somewhere.  First check
>> your
>> manifold pressure in the closed hangar against your altimeter set for
>> field
>> elevation.  You are at what? 500 ft?  The MP should be within a half inch
>> of
>> the altimeter setting in the Kollsman window.  If your MP reading is
>> correct, then find the leak.
>> I have seen several methods for finding leaks on this list.  Get a can of
>> WD-40 with the little red tube on it so you can control it and not make
>> much
>> of a mess, and with the engine idling, spurt(very small spurt) WD-40 on
>> each
>> crack and cranny on the intake system. Spurt, listen for the idle speed 
>> to
>> increase, spurt next place.  Don't forget where the injectors install, it
>> could be leaking around them.  Idle increase=leak.  No change=no leak.
>> Be careful there is a prop on there.  Do this with someone. Don't spray
>> the
>> exhaust!
>> To explain what I think might be happening with your fuel flow and HP
>> numbers in a couple of words, its your new large injectors.  The EM-2
>> looks
>> at pulse duration to start to make its calculations.  The big injectors
>> have
>> a smaller duration to satisfy the fuel requirement.  You will have to
>> recalibrate your fuel flow to fix this.  Dennis is doing this now as 
>> well.
>> You should start all over with your tuning from the very beginning.  Do
>> the
>> check the injector flow rate at 22 inches Mode 3. Tracy suggested this
>> order, Mode 3, 6, 2, 1, then auto tune.  You don't want to be doing auto
>> tune now, cause every time you do, it will change something.
>> Fix the leak before you do anything else.
>>
>> Bill B
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
>> Behalf Of Christopher Barber
>> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 4:43 AM
>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Consistant progress...not sure how to act?
>>
>> I went out tonight and checked for leaks and could not find any, but you
>> are
>> right, it is likely idling too high.  I will likely remove the suspect
>> part
>> of the manifold and give it a more diligent inspection.
>> The Mistral intake is two major parts.  The part that is bolted onto the
>> engine has nothing that could leak.  It is connected to the throttle body
>> portion by aluminum tubes.  The throttle body portion has a couple of
>> places
>> that could leak.  That being said, I was intense in my method to seal the
>> the openings that Mistral provided to attached various hoses that I am 
>> not
>> using.  However, I will verify.
>>
>> I did verify that the throttle is closing all the way, so I got some more
>> investigating to do.
>>
>> In a similar note and perhaps this should be more directed at Tracy but
>> how
>> does the EM2 determine Horsepower and Percent of power.  Tonight when I
>> cranked the power to full at about 5870 rpm's I was looking at a fuel 
>> flow
>> of about 11 gph (which if I read previous post correctly is
>> low) and a HP of about 93 which indicated 50% power.  Now, I was at FULL
>> power, but is was indicating 93 HP and 50% power.  Whats up with that?
>> OH OH OH, the MP was showing 29. (for once I remembered to look <g>)
>>
>> I did learn something tonight.  If I forget to turn on the fan while
>> sitting
>> on the ramp at 86 degree Houston night, my temps shoot up much faster.
>>
>> I do think my staging point is either 15 or 15.5 by looking at the
>> asterisk
>> coming on and off while near idle.  I have had my EC2 since
>> 2005 and even though Tracy has updated it, I think the staging is the
>> same.
>>
>> I am still working out EC2 issues.  While it is running much, much 
>> better,
>> it still seems to change subtle elements of the MAP table on its own.  I
>> don't know yet if this is due to my attempt at using Auto Tune mode or
>> not.
>> It seems when I shut it down at night and come back the next days, minor
>> difference are present. Not sure why it seems to have a mind of its own.
>> Of
>> course, getting time to focus on the differences is difficult.  I know, I
>> am
>> preaching to the choir, as we all have time constraints.
>>
>> I hope I am actually making progress <g>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> Al Gietzen wrote:
>>> I meant to note the MP but forgot.  IIRC the MP was what I considered
>>> a bit high at about 15.  Since this is where Tracy has the staging
>>> point by design
>>> (15 or 15.5 I think) I noticed it
>>>
>>> Chris;
>>>
>>> I see Map of 10 - 11" at idle.  By 15 it's putting out some serious
>>> power.
>>> Either the throttle isn't closing or you have a pretty serious leak.
>>>
>>> I think on the more recent versions Tracy has been setting  the
>>> default staging higher, like 16.5 - 17".
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Al
>>>
>>>
>>>
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