X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao105.cox.net ([68.230.241.41] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3732477 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:30:13 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.41; envelope-from=alventures@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo03.cox.net ([70.169.32.75]) by fed1rmmtao105.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090625152936.OESY20430.fed1rmmtao105.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:29:36 -0400 Received: from BigAl ([72.192.135.181]) by fed1rmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id 8FVb1c0083uzsQg04FVb19; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:29:35 -0400 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=nOTDmCNj-x0A:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=nUuTZ29dAAAA:8 a=mCDUBUiGBeg8Bp06z2QA:9 a=2mMLM5RZUUyw2R-oLFcA:7 a=UHhNtUybhUjdN641mJXg6MSmjV4A:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=_m3Rj1oONazHz0zf:21 a=L_BPPlgS0Sgtor-q:21 a=rVbKlIjhfgaSiBPVDjsA:9 a=0A8dRaUH3Okg7423yggA:7 a=H1pQPHBain2TzfBvdM2ctrH17sAA:4 a=K4okwiHWiigph8VR:21 a=yczy1P9x1h3VJlVa:21 X-CM-Score: 0.00 From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto Tune vice Max Power???: [FlyRotary] Re: Consistant progress...not sure how to act? Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:29:53 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C9F56F.1D14B0C0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6838 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: Acn1nghSR6g5jTLDRHGkYr+P6DKSpwAE9Kcg Importance: Normal This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C9F56F.1D14B0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tracy made a statement that he tuned his engine so that with the mixture knob set at about 1:00 oclock, he got best power. How would you = accomplish that in your tuning? Would you set the mixture to 11, 12, or 1 oclock = when tuning? Bill B=20 I tuned with the knob at 12:00 - then max power is around 1:30 and lean cruise is about 11:00. YMMV. Al =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bobby J. Hughes Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:44 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto Tune vice Max Power???: [FlyRotary] Re: Consistant progress...not sure how to act? I think the programming knob position controls A/F ratio in auto tune. = On my installation with the programming knob at 12 o'clock it tunes for about = 14.5 on my wideband. Set the knob to the right and it tunes for a richer = mixture. At least that's my observation.=20 =20 Bobby =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:54 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto Tune vice Max Power???: [FlyRotary] Re: Consistant progress...not sure how to act? You are correct, Mark. If did preface my observation with "IF your fuel flow is calibrated and accurate.." {:>). Which could be a big = assumption. =20 However, not being familiar with the Auto Tune feature, I have no idea = what is required to calibrate the fuel flow or whether you can do it on the ground or not. However, Chris did indicate he was attempting to use the "Auto Tune" feature - which I believe is for tuning for cruise not best power. IF that assumption is correct then it begs the question of = whether it affects full power WOT operation or is automatically cut out of the = fuel control loop under that condition.=20 =20 I just thought the suggestion to turn it off or temporary disable the = Auto tune might be an easy thing to check to see if it affected the RPM and = fuel flow. =20 =20 =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 8:09 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Auto Tune vice Max Power???: [FlyRotary] Re: Consistant progress...not sure how to act? =20 ED,=20 =20 Isn't that a pretty big assumption to expect the fuel flow to be = calibrated and accurate considering that he hasn't yet flown and just switched to larger injectors? I've been flying for two years and I'm not done = tweaking the fuel flow calibration on my EM-2. If that is in fact the case, = isn't everything else a moot point? =20 =20 Mark S. On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 6:24 AM, Ed Anderson wrote: Chris, IF your fuel flow is calibrated and accurate a fuel flow of 11 gph at = 5870 rpm and 29" Hg, that would indicate an air/fuel ratio of around 16:1. = Now, I am not familiar with Tracy's auto tune function (no EM2), so don't = know if it's trying to achieve a 14.7:1 Stoichiometric ratio or not - but, my calculations indicates your engine may have been running a bit lean for = best power. For best power you want an air/fuel ratio of around 12.65:1. If you = have that A/F ratio then your 5870 rpm at WOT and 29"Hg would give you around = 155 HP with a fuel flow of around 14.4 gph. I don't know if you can, but IF you can, I would turn off/disable the = auto tune feature and try just manually adjusting your fuel mixture knob to = give you a richer A/F and see what that gives you. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the auto tune is more for tuning for economy = rather than max power. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com =20 http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Christopher Barber Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 4:43 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Consistant progress...not sure how to act? I went out tonight and checked for leaks and could not find any, but you are right, it is likely idling too high. I will likely remove the suspect part of the manifold and give it a more diligent inspection. The Mistral intake is two major parts. The part that is bolted onto the engine has nothing that could leak. It is connected to the throttle body portion by aluminum tubes. The throttle body portion has a couple of places that could leak. That being said, I was intense in my method to seal the the openings that Mistral provided to attached various hoses that I am not using. However, I will verify. I did verify that the throttle is closing all the way, so I got some more investigating to do. In a similar note and perhaps this should be more directed at Tracy but how does the EM2 determine Horsepower and Percent of power. Tonight when I cranked the power to full at about 5870 rpm's I was looking at a fuel flow of about 11 gph (which if I read previous post correctly is low) and a HP of about 93 which indicated 50% power. Now, I was at FULL power, but is was indicating 93 HP and 50% power. Whats up with that? OH OH OH, the MP was showing 29. (for once I remembered to look ) I did learn something tonight. If I forget to turn on the fan while sitting on the ramp at 86 degree Houston night, my temps shoot up much faster. I do think my staging point is either 15 or 15.5 by looking at the asterisk coming on and off while near idle. I have had my EC2 since 2005 and even though Tracy has updated it, I think the staging is the = same. I am still working out EC2 issues. While it is running much, much better, it still seems to change subtle elements of the MAP table on its own. I don't know yet if this is due to my attempt at using Auto Tune mode or not. It seems when I shut it down at night and come back the next days, minor difference are present. Not sure why it seems to have a mind of its own. Of course, getting time to focus on the differences is difficult. I know, I am preaching to the choir, as we all have time constraints. I hope I am actually making progress All the best, Chris Al Gietzen wrote: > I meant to note the MP but forgot. IIRC the MP was what I considered = a bit > high at about 15. Since this is where Tracy has the staging point by design > (15 or 15.5 I think) I noticed it > > Chris; > > I see Map of 10 - 11" at idle. By 15 it's putting out some serious = power. > Either the throttle isn't closing or you have a pretty serious leak. > > I think on the more recent versions Tracy has been setting the = default > staging higher, like 16.5 - 17". > > Best, > > Al > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com =20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C9F56F.1D14B0C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Tracy made a statement that = he tuned his engine so that with the mixture knob set at about 1:00 oclock, he = got best power.  How would you accomplish that in your = tuning?  Would you set the mixture to 11, 12, or 1 oclock when tuning?

Bill B 

I tuned with the knob at 12:00 = – then max power is around 1:30 and lean cruise is about 11:00. = YMMV.

Al

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bobby J. Hughes
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:44 = AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Auto Tune vice Max Power???: [FlyRotary] Re: Consistant progress...not sure how to = act?

I think the programming knob position controls A/F ratio in auto tune. On = my installation with the programming knob at 12 o'clock it tunes for = about 14.5 on my wideband. Set the knob to the right and it tunes for a richer = mixture. At least that's my observation.

 

Bobby

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:54 = AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Auto Tune vice Max Power???: [FlyRotary] Re: Consistant progress...not sure how to = act?

You are correct, Mark.  If did preface = my observation = with “IF = your fuel flow is calibrated and accurate..”  {:>). = Which could be a big assumption.

 

 However, not being familiar with the = Auto Tune feature, I have no idea what is required to calibrate the fuel flow or = whether you can do it on the ground or not.  However, Chris did indicate he = was attempting to use the “Auto Tune” feature – which I = believe is for tuning for cruise = not best power.  IF that = assumption is correct then it begs the question of whether it affects full power WOT operation or is automatically cut out of the fuel control loop under = that condition.

 

I just thought the suggestion to turn it off = or temporary disable the Auto tune might be an easy thing to check to see = if it affected the RPM and fuel flow.

 

 

 

Ed

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 8:09 = AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Auto Tune vice Max Power???: [FlyRotary] Re: Consistant progress...not sure how to = act?

 

ED,

 

Isn't that a pretty big assumption to = expect the fuel flow to be calibrated and accurate considering that he hasn't yet = flown and just switched to larger injectors?  I've been flying for two = years and I'm not done tweaking the fuel flow calibration on my EM-2.  = If that is in fact the case, isn't everything else a moot point?  =

 

Mark S.

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 6:24 = AM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t; wrote:

Chris,

IF your fuel flow is calibrated and accurate a fuel flow of 11 gph at = 5870
rpm and 29" Hg, that would indicate an air/fuel ratio of around = 16:1.  Now,
I am not familiar with Tracy's auto tune function (no = EM2), so don't know if
it's trying to achieve a 14.7:1 Stoichiometric ratio or not - but, = my
calculations indicates your engine may have been running a bit lean for = best
power.

For best power you want an air/fuel ratio of around 12.65:1.  If = you have
that A/F ratio then your 5870 rpm at WOT and 29"Hg would give you = around 155
HP with a fuel flow of around 14.4 gph.

I don't know if you can, but IF you can, I would turn off/disable the = auto
tune feature and try just manually adjusting your fuel mixture knob to = give
you a richer A/F and see what that gives you.  I could be wrong, = but my
understanding is that the auto tune is more for tuning for economy = rather
than max power.

Ed



Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494= BW

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm=

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Christopher Barber
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 4:43 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Consistant progress...not sure how to act?

I went out tonight and checked for leaks and could not find any, but = you
are right, it is likely idling too high.  I will likely remove = the
suspect part of the manifold and give it a more diligent inspection.
The Mistral intake is two major parts.  The part that is bolted = onto the
engine has nothing that could leak.  It is connected to the = throttle
body portion by aluminum tubes.  The throttle body portion has a = couple
of places that could leak.  That being said, I was intense in my = method
to seal the the openings that Mistral provided to attached various = hoses
that I am not using.  However, I will verify.

I did verify that the throttle is closing all the way, so I got some
more investigating to do.

In a similar note and perhaps this should be more directed at Tracy = but
how does the EM2 determine Horsepower and Percent of power. =  Tonight
when I cranked the power to full at about 5870 rpm's I was looking at = a
fuel flow of about 11 gph (which if I read previous post correctly = is
low) and a HP of about 93 which indicated 50% power.  Now, I was at = FULL
power, but is was indicating 93 HP and 50% power.  Whats up with = that?
OH OH OH, the MP was showing 29. (for once I remembered to look = <g>)

I did learn something tonight.  If I forget to turn on the fan = while
sitting on the ramp at 86 degree Houston night, my temps shoot up = much
faster.

I do think my staging point is either 15 or 15.5 by looking at the
asterisk coming on and off while near idle.  I have had my EC2 = since
2005 and even though Tracy has updated it, I think the staging is the = same.

I am still working out EC2 issues.  While it is running much, = much
better, it still seems to change subtle elements of the MAP table on = its
own.  I don't know yet if this is due to my attempt at using Auto = Tune
mode or not.  It seems when I shut it down at night and come back = the
next days, minor difference are present. Not sure why it seems to have = a
mind of its own.  Of course, getting time to focus on the = differences is
difficult.  I know, I am preaching to the choir, as we all have = time
constraints.

I hope I am actually making progress <g>

All the best,

Chris

Al Gietzen wrote:
> I meant to note the MP but forgot.  IIRC the MP was what I = considered a
bit
> high at about 15.  Since this is where Tracy has the staging = point by
design
> (15 or 15.5 I think) I noticed it
>
> Chris;
>
> I see Map of 10 - 11" at idle.  By 15 it's putting out = some serious power.
> Either the throttle isn't closing or you have a pretty serious = leak.
>
> I think on the more recent versions Tracy has been setting =  the default
> staging higher, like 16.5 - 17".
>
> Best,
>
> Al
>
>
>
> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml
>
>

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature
database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature
database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.h= tml

 

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C9F56F.1D14B0C0--