X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-qy0-f204.google.com ([209.85.221.204] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3670078 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:18:02 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.204; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qyk42 with SMTP id 42so149250qyk.7 for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 09:17:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=/AVrUdKcxYT+CX9T5UeM9BSAqL++k/lG/7JtCKZokZs=; b=jF06v7Yzd0xFAklWFqA5eRmnxoxPfIg5ktJJrPijgre7i6xbFaw6sKqPa8bGe3XBfi PVG5wvzcLaVmuBO94XqdDoQhJqaY8Cw2fhcTAajLNgvDjxY9Ew6IJMrnc2IGhZsKFRuK woFT8vU/BwBVPwh6rlyFM6n5srQz15a7Vtc+Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=r5w83I0e2WZ3+eBAHzkrB9oSOTTUWvFBjbq2RD/7S2NT+grFQGwBxLWjmmoM/xKVY4 KPbclN4MwORfCj6Ch43z8vD78kwZ4QfQbF4TlvI+mkBIOq2vSVxCANHXaLrXNZZaUGnO lLcQDQ//ShFTx4bGUMqCv9jzpHZxP7PIKal5g= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.60.69 with SMTP id o5mr1135871qah.227.1244045843867; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 09:17:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:17:23 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 6a4b2df1dcff32ea Message-ID: <1b4b137c0906030917o2b04f0b3y4f3d4fb69bd6be6c@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] The Good and the Bad...saga continues... From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cb3009ba7d3046b73fe7f --0015175cb3009ba7d3046b73fe7f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've seen these exact symptoms once before Chris. The big clue is the engine problem as soon as you go out of mode 0. It is an absolutely positive indication of ground noise. In this case the noise is so severe that the EC2 thinks it is getting Store button commands when the engine is running. It works in Mode 0 because the EC2 will not execute commands in Mode 0 when running. I worked with one builder for over 4 months trying to diagnose and fix the problems over the phone and email without success. I'm going to copy the trip report I wrote (below) after a personal visit to the project to make sure my own sanity was not slipping. It just happens t= o include some (but not all) of the steps that you need to look at as well a= s some other things that may give other builders a clue as to what other type problems crop up. The airplane was an RV-10 but composite airplanes are prone to even worse problems if the electrical system is not laid out correctly. Tracy On 11-16-08 made trip to Todd S. in Savanna GA to check installation and found the following. 1. EC2 was not grounded to airframe close to EC2 per instructions. There were 2 ground wires but they were longer than acceptable and went to a nois= y destination on electrical system. The case was electrically isolated from ground by foam tape between it and the mounting bracket, contrary to instructions. Could not sync up EM3 due to noise induced communications errors. Even without EM2 adapter in line, unit would not consistently ente= r test modes (1 or 8) also due to noise. Unit also showed a couple of instances where map table and other parameters were programmed spontaneousl= y due to noise. Engine would start running erratically when EC2 Mode switch taken out of Mode 0 (ground noise causing programming). Installing a short wire to airframe eliminated these symptoms. 2. At one point in testing, found that cylinder 5 and 8 were not firing. = This turned out to be due to Blue Mountain tach connection to the 5 & 8 coil driver which is not recommended. This shunted the signal to ground when the Bluemountain was not on. 3. The crank signal was measured with an oscilloscope and found to be of low amplitude and was modulated by off center trigger wheel. The signal amplitude varied by as much as 30% (average) and 100% after the sync gap initial pulse. Even with the engine at highest RPM tested, the CAS signal amplitude was only +- 2.6V at the highest point. Note, tach on plane was way out of calibration and measured prop rpm instead of engine rpm, (not recommended). I estimate that the engine rpm was ~ 2400 RPM. This is much less than the sample Electromotive sensor evaluated here (Todd=92s spare) which gave at least 12 V P =96 P at only 1200 RPM. I think this i= s due to the mounting of the sensor offset axially by approximately .22=94. = This must be corrected. 4. The EC2 flow rate was found set to maximum and even this was not enough to get enough fuel flow at ~ 25% of available manifold pressure. When hi= gher manifold pressures were eventually tested, the mixture went rich and was well within range of the available flow rate. I determined that the dynamic range setting of the EC2 was way too high for this particular engin= e =96 prop installation. This is why the customer always setting the flow r= ate to the inappropriate max setting because they were setting Mode 3 at too lo= w a manifold pressure setting, probably due to the rough running at higher throttle. The dynamic range was adjusted using Mode 2 and the mixture could then be well adjusted at all tested throttle settings when using the default inj. flow rate. Must change the default dynamic range setting fo= r LS-1/2 type engines and clarify the tuning procedure to caution for this situation. 5. The one remaining problem that remained in testing this installation wa= s an occasional miss at higher throttle settings. I think this is due to th= e low amplitude and modulation of the crank angle signal causing the EC2 to loose synchronization. If the amplitude were higher, the modulation due to non concentricity would not be a problem but the combination of the two is unacceptable. It is hoped that moving the sensors so that they are centere= d on the trigger wheel and making sure that the sensor gap is close to .020= =94 will eliminate this problem. Action Plan: Configure an EC2 closer to the required injector flow rate and dynamic range for this engine so that the builder will have a much simpler job setting the EC2 up. See if I can make the EC2 crank sensor less susceptible to crank sensor signal modulation at even low signal levels. Even if possible, this does NOT eliminate the need to remedy the crank sensor mounting misalignment. Send this configured controller to Todd Swazey to swap out his current EC2 controller. Builder Changes Required: 1. At minimum, install a short (< 12=94) wire (16 ga or heavier) to airfra= me ground near the EC2 to the EC2 ground stud. If possible, the mounting method for the EC2 should directly ground the EC2 case to the airframe. Th= is is the preferred mounting method for the EC2 but the short ground wire should still be installed. 2. The crank sensor mount must be modified in order to have the crank sensor centered axially (engine axis, not sensor axis) on the trigger wheel= . Crank sensor gap should be set at .020=94 and should not vary by more than .003=94 around the circumference of the trigger wheel. If gap varies more than this, I recommend that the wheel be removed and machined in a lathe in order to take the high points off the teeth (equalize the gap around the wheel). 3. I strongly suggest that the connection to the cylinder 5/8 coil trigger from the Bluemountain EFIS be removed. The injector driver on Pin 17 of the EC2 is a suggested replacement. Check with Bluemountain if this is a workable solution. 4. When the replacement EC2 is received and after doing the above changes= , carefully follow the suggested tuning procedure in the EC2 installation guide. Adjust both the Mode 3 and Mode 2 setting before doing any adjustments in Mode 1. Report results to me at RWS. On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:16 AM, Christopher Barber < CBarber@texasattorney.net> wrote: > First, had a great time at the TRR north of Austin. Thanks to those who > attended and made it well worth the time. > > Now, nose back to the grindstone. I have had a number of small successes > since I have built the latest engine and received my electronics back fro= m > Tracy a couple of weeks ago. Yesterday, I added my EGT probes and ran th= e > engine on and off through the day. > > I have made great strides when it comes to my cooling issues. While I wa= s > waiting for my parts from Tracy and Mazdatrix (new center iron) etc, I re= did > much of my Firewall aft and cleaned it up a lot and made some major > modifications to my radiator and oil cooler. I added a much larger Griffi= n > Radiator (22X19X3) and added the stock 2nd gen oil cooler in a new > configeration with much more direct ducting from the Velocity's two roof > mounted NACA's along with some strategically placed fans. Shazam! What a > difference. Seems I can now let the engine idle indefinitely while sitti= ng > on the ramp in a hot Houston summer evening with OAT at about 80 (may hav= e > been closer to 90 before the sun set) degrees and about 80 percent humidi= ty. > Last night, the engine ran so well, that if I had to I would have taxied > out and taken off.....likely a bad idea without wings or canard attached > though. > My coolant stabilized at around 180 degrees (even though my reading > constantly jump around a few degrees) and the oil temp was around 200 > degrees. This was while at idle of around 1800 to 2100 rpm's. The engi= ne > was smooth, the Map seemed to make sense to me when I looked at the table= s > so I shut it down for the night. > > Came back tonight, and got mostly the same results....well, not quite. A= s > must be with ya'll the worst part of all this is intermittent results. D= OH! > Well, the engine is still starting damn easy. Success. It is running > mostly smoothly. But, it occasionally stumbled. So,, I checked out the M= AP > table. WHAT? Several of the Map settings had changed. I did NOT do it.= A > couple of the bars were all the way to the bottom and a few 3/4 the way t= o > the top. When I left last night ALL were straight across the middle. I > have no idea what changed things. So, I set them back to where I had the= m > and things got better, however, as I continued to run the engine, the eng= ine > did stumble at various power levels. The MAP table seemed consistent. A= nd, > of course, the "stumbles" were inconsistent. Damn. Hmmmmmm? > > Now, it gets even more interesting. While in Mode 1, things seem mostly > normal (other than the stumbling) HOWEVER, for some reason, when I try t= o > put the PCM in either Mode 1 or Mode 9 the engine starts to quite. It > continues to run as soon as I put it back in Mode 0. This happened once > before, but other issues distracted me until it was called to my attentio= n > today. It was not happening yesterday. I know I have some wiring issue= s > so perhaps I need to address these before I burden the list. I have had > inconsistent stalling when I tried to run on only the secondary coils. > > Also, it seems as if the secondary injectors are putting out some fuel ev= en > at low power settings. I suspect this since when I turn them on and off > around idle there is a distinct difference in the hum of the engine. Thi= s > also seems to reinforce some electrical gremlins as tonight I let the pla= ne > idle for almost a full hour.....really, a full hour . I was running > mostly smooth (with the aforementioned stumbles) and cool. Suddenly, aft= er > about 40 minutes, the engine started surging and seemed to not be getting > fuel. I was standing on the side of the plane, so I hopped in and adjust= ed > the mixture to no avail. I then switched off the secondary injectors and= it > got worse. I turned on the secondaries and turned off the primaries, and > things smoothed out. I let it run a couple of minutes on secondaries and > then switched back...same thing. Tried again and after a couple of attem= pts > and playing with the mixture, the primaries smoothed out. I let it run f= or > the rest of the hour (6 hours on the Hobbs now) and shut down for the nig= ht > with mixed emotions. Happy due to the cooling but disturbed at the vario= us > anomalies > > So, I need to go and find the electrical gremlins. They have a bizarre > habit of undermining other efforts. > > On a final positive side, it is kinda cool to have EGT's. Never had them > before. Interesting to see them go up and down with the throttle. Curren= tly > they are reading about 70 degrees apart. > > Now that I have had this latest build running for about five hours, thus > mostly broken in per my reading of the archives, I plan to replace the di= no > oil for some pure synthetic. Maybe it will lower the oil temps a bit too= , > even though I was told on the Roundup this weekend that a 20 degree > difference is considered normal by many. > > Thanks for your interest and any insight you may be willing to share. > > All the best, > > Chris > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > --0015175cb3009ba7d3046b73fe7f Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've seen these exact symptoms once before Chris.=A0 The big clue is th= e engine problem as soon as you go out of mode 0. =A0 It is an absolutely p= ositive indication of ground noise.=A0 In this case the noise is so severe = that the EC2 thinks it is getting Store button commands when the engine is = running.=A0 It works in Mode 0 because the EC2 will not execute commands in= Mode 0 when running.=A0 I worked with one builder for over 4 months trying= to diagnose and fix the problems over the phone and email without success.= =A0=A0 I'm going to copy the trip report I wrote (below) after a person= al visit to the project to make sure my own sanity was not slipping.=A0 It = just happens to include some (but not all)=A0 of the steps that you need to= look at as well as some other things that may give other builders a clue a= s to what other type problems crop up.=A0 The airplane was an RV-10 but com= posite airplanes are prone to even worse problems if the electrical system = is not laid out correctly.=A0

Tracy
= =A0

On 11-16-08 made trip to Todd S. in Savanna GA to check installation and found the following.=A0

=A0

1.=A0 EC2 was not grounded to airframe close to EC2 per instructions.=A0 There were 2 ground wires but they were longer than acceptable and went to a noisy destination on electrical system.=A0 The case was electrically isolated from ground by foam tape between it and the mounting bracket, contrary to instructions.=A0=A0 Could not sync up EM3 due to noise induced communications errors.=A0 Even without EM2 adapter in line, unit would not consistently enter = test modes (1 or 8) also due to noise.=A0 Unit also showed a couple of instances where map table and other parameters were= programmed spontaneously due to noise. =A0 Engine would start running erratically when EC2 Mode swit= ch taken out of Mode 0=A0 (ground noise causing programming). =A0 Installing a short wire to airframe eliminated these symptoms.

=A0

2.=A0 At one point in testing, found that cylinder 5 and 8 were not firing.=A0 <= /span>This turned out to be due to Blue Mountain tach connection to the 5 & 8 coil driver which is not recommended.=A0=A0 This shunted the signal to ground when the Bluemountain was not on.=A0

=A0

3.=A0 The crank signal was measured with an oscilloscope and found to be of low amplitude and was modulated by off center trigger wheel.=A0 =A0The signal amplitude varied by as much as=A0 30% (average) and 100% after the sync gap initial pulse.=A0 Even with the engine at highest RPM tested, the CAS signal amplitude was only +- 2.6V at the highes= t point.=A0 Note,=A0 tach on = plane was way out of calibration and measured prop rpm instead of engine rpm, (not recommended).=A0=A0 I estimate that the engine rpm was ~ 2400 RPM.=A0=A0 This is much less than the sample Electromotive sensor evaluated here=A0 (Todd=92s spare) =A0which gave at least 12 V P =96 P at only 1200 RPM.=A0=A0 I think this is due to the mounting of the sensor offset axially by approxima= tely .22=94.=A0=A0 This must be corrected.

=A0

4.=A0 The EC2 flow rate was found set to maximum and even this was not enough to get enough fuel fl= ow at ~ 25% of available manifold pressure.=A0=A0 When=A0 higher manifold pressures were eventually tested, the mixture went rich and was well within range of = the available flow rate.=A0=A0 I determined that the dynamic range setting of the EC2 was way too high for this particular engine =96 prop installation.=A0=A0 This is why the customer always setting the flow rate to the inappropriate max setting because they were setting Mode 3 at too low a manifold pressure setting, probably due to the rough running at higher throttle.=A0 <= /span>=A0The dynamic range was adjusted using Mode 2 and the mixture could then be well adjusted at all tested throttle settings when using the default inj. flow rate.=A0=A0=A0 Must change the default dynamic range setting for LS-1/2 type engines and clarify the tuning procedure to caution for this situation.=A0

=A0

5.=A0 The one remaining problem that remained in testing this installation was an occasional miss a= t higher throttle settings.=A0=A0 I think this is due to the low amplitude and modulation of the crank angle signal =A0causing the EC2 to loose synchronization.=A0 If the amplitude were higher, the modulation due to non concentricity would not be a problem but the combination of the = two is unacceptable.=A0 It is hoped that moving the sensors so that they are centered on the trigger wheel= =A0 and making sure that the sensor gap is close to .020=94 =A0will eliminate this problem.=A0

=A0

Action Plan:=A0=A0 Configure an EC2 closer to the required injector flow rate and dynam= ic range for this engine so that the builder will have a much simpler job sett= ing the EC2 up.=A0=A0=A0 See if I can make the EC2 crank sensor less susceptible to crank sensor signal modulation at even low signal levels.=A0 Even if possible, this does NOT eliminate the need to remedy the crank sensor mounting misalignmen= t.=A0=A0 Send this configured controller to Todd Sw= azey to swap out his current EC2 controller.

=A0

Builder Changes Required:

=A0

1.=A0 At minimum, install a short (< 12=94) wire (16 ga or heavier) to airframe ground nea= r the EC2 to the EC2 ground stud.=A0=A0 If possible, the mounting method for the EC2 should directly ground the EC2 ca= se to the airframe.=A0 This is the preferred mounting method for the EC2 but the short ground wire should still be installed.

=A0

2.=A0 The crank sensor mount must be modified in order to have the crank sensor centered axially (engine axis, not sensor axis) on the trigger wheel.=A0 Crank sensor gap should be set at .020=94 and should not vary by more than .003=94 around the circumference of the trigge= r wheel.=A0 If gap varies more than this, I recommend that the wheel be removed and machined in a lathe in order to tak= e the high points off the teeth (equalize the gap around the wheel).

=A0

3.=A0 I strongly suggest that the connection to the cylinder 5/8 coil trigger from the Bluemountain = EFIS be removed.=A0=A0 The injector driver on Pin 17 of the EC2 is a suggested replacement.=A0 Check with Bluemountain if this is a workable solution.

=A0

4.=A0 When the=A0 replacement EC2 is received and after doing the above changes, carefully follow the suggested tuning procedure in the E= C2 installation guide.=A0=A0 Adjust both the Mode 3 and Mode 2 setting before doing any adjustments in Mode 1.=A0=A0 Report results to me at RWS.




On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:16 AM, Chr= istopher Barber <CBarber@texasattorney.net> wrote:
First, had a great time at the TRR north of Austin. =A0Thanks to those who = attended and made it well worth the time.

Now, nose back to the grindstone. =A0I have had a number of small successes= since I have built the latest engine and received my electronics back from= Tracy a couple of weeks ago. =A0Yesterday, I added my EGT probes and ran t= he engine on and off through the day.

I have made great strides when it comes to my cooling issues. =A0While I wa= s waiting for my parts from Tracy and Mazdatrix (new center iron) etc, I re= did much of my Firewall aft and cleaned it up a lot and made some major mod= ifications to my radiator and oil cooler. I added a much larger Griffin Rad= iator (22X19X3) and added the stock 2nd gen oil cooler in a new configerati= on with much more direct ducting from the Velocity's two roof mounted N= ACA's along with some strategically placed fans. =A0Shazam! What a diff= erence. =A0Seems I can now let the engine idle indefinitely while sitting o= n the ramp in a hot Houston summer evening with OAT at about 80 (may have b= een closer to 90 before the sun set) degrees and about 80 percent humidity.= =A0Last night, the engine ran so well, that if I had to I would have taxie= d out and taken off.....likely a bad idea without wings or canard attached = though.
My coolant stabilized at around 180 degrees (even though my reading constan= tly jump around a few degrees) and the oil temp was around 200 degrees. =A0= This was while at idle of around 1800 to 2100 rpm's. =A0 The engine was= smooth, the Map seemed to make sense to me when I looked at the tables so = I shut it down for the night.

Came back tonight, and got mostly the same results....well, not quite. =A0A= s must be with ya'll the worst part of all this is intermittent results= . =A0DOH! Well, the engine is still starting damn easy. =A0Success. =A0It i= s running mostly smoothly. But, it occasionally stumbled. =A0So,, I checked= out the MAP table. =A0WHAT? =A0Several of the Map settings had changed. = =A0I did NOT do it. =A0A couple of the bars were all the way to the bottom = and a few 3/4 the way to the top. =A0When I left last night ALL were straig= ht across the middle. =A0I have no idea what changed things. =A0So, I set t= hem back to where I had them and things got better, however, as I continued= to run the engine, the engine did stumble at various power levels. =A0The = MAP table seemed consistent. =A0And, of course, the "stumbles" we= re inconsistent. =A0Damn. =A0Hmmmmmm?

Now, it gets even more interesting. =A0While in Mode 1, things seem mostly = normal (other than the stumbling) =A0HOWEVER, for some reason, when I try t= o put the PCM in either Mode 1 or Mode 9 the engine starts to quite. =A0It = continues to run as soon as I put it back in Mode 0. =A0This happened once = before, but other issues distracted me until it was called to my attention = today. =A0It was not happening yesterday. =A0 I know I have some wiring iss= ues so perhaps I need to address these before I burden the list. =A0I have = had inconsistent stalling when I tried to run on only the secondary coils.<= br>
Also, it seems as if the secondary injectors are putting out some fuel even= at low power settings. =A0I suspect this since when I turn them on and off= around idle there is a distinct difference in the hum of the engine. =A0Th= is also seems to reinforce some electrical gremlins as tonight I let the pl= ane idle for almost a full hour.....really, a full hour <g>. =A0I was= running mostly smooth (with the aforementioned stumbles) and cool. =A0Sudd= enly, after about 40 minutes, the engine started surging and seemed to not = be getting fuel. =A0I was standing on the side of the plane, so I hopped in= and adjusted the mixture to no avail. =A0I then switched off the secondary= injectors and it got worse. =A0I turned on the secondaries and turned off = the primaries, and things smoothed out. =A0I let it run a couple of minutes= on secondaries and then switched back...same thing. =A0Tried again and aft= er a couple of attempts and playing with the mixture, the primaries smoothe= d out. =A0I let it run for the rest of the hour (6 hours on the Hobbs now) = and shut down for the night with mixed emotions. =A0Happy due to the coolin= g but disturbed at the various anomalies

So, I need to go and find the electrical gremlins. =A0They have a bizarre h= abit of undermining other efforts.

On a final positive side, it is kinda cool to have EGT's. =A0Never had = them before. =A0Interesting to see them go up and down with the throttle. C= urrently they are reading about 70 degrees apart.

Now that I have had this latest build running for about five hours, thus mo= stly broken in per my reading of the archives, I plan to replace the dino o= il for some pure synthetic. =A0Maybe it will lower the oil temps a bit too,= even though I was told on the Roundup this weekend that a 20 degree differ= ence is considered normal by many.

Thanks for your interest and any insight you may be willing to share.

All the best,

Chris

--
Homepage: =A0http:/= /www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists= /flyrotary/List.html

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