X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.168] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3639195 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 11 May 2009 20:02:44 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.200.168; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 28so2347026wff.25 for ; Mon, 11 May 2009 17:02:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=YikJUfBEq8qm9RtaGy9UMBA1VblmmJ1Tp2QJ0bgkTeY=; b=efDh5hD6YSvwkh5wz1/w4Uq/YAMY06HPVCCP4P87WpB71H5X8yidwOkEVmj3BRE0MW GHB6k6w9esAo//1WioSf8fvuj/JMpzKYbOSdaV0LGbJaE6d3RiCq+f2beGqWI+gTQd4L /nM9cVpy93lhZ6JkQOfPLDQFQb0ak7K5g36x0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=Toyg4+aHwShMjuBdKAoZMAlYYu06YoMO6scZ1vgrec7aNgVBZKE7bMV2NlG1OplvSM vDTbqCLZrMG01H8VfKbQ2xOF77ozk7OKyQO1rQyby/7QuDt4x2SU58I/zjAJ2Dq1D8D4 nVec/Xjf9cbR7AXlmK3aebWU+rjCNIgwy+XD4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.141.21 with SMTP id o21mr696172wfd.234.1242086529454; Mon, 11 May 2009 17:02:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 20:02:09 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5216848eea9eca68 Message-ID: <1b4b137c0905111702y19b26effx66a51bb4c7fcba14@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning - Today From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd17ea85e52400469abcebf --000e0cd17ea85e52400469abcebf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK so far except for one detail. You said: "Let me see if I understand this. For example, at MAP 22 I had the engine running smooth and what I thought was strong with the Mixture Knob at about 0100. If I moved the Mixture Knob to 0400 the MAP increased, RPM increased, engine sounded stronger." All good except for (again) the MAP increasing. My guess is that you Assumed that the MAP went up when the RPM went up. This does not happen under these circumstances without increasing the throttle. See previous comments on this. Think of the engine as a vacuum pump (it is). If you do something to make the engine (vacuum pump) turn faster WITHOUT opening the throttle more, the MAP is going to go DOWN (more vacuum), not UP, as the engine sucks more air through the same restriction. I only mention this because the one trying to diagnose the problem has to believe they are getting accurate info. If not, they tend to give up. It does sound like your mixture monitor is not working well. Are you saying that the MI jumps around (up and down?) all the time, when you move the mixture control, random direction when you move the mix control, or what? Position of O2 sensor (too close to end of pipe, too cold a position, etc), exhaust leaks, engine miss, bad connections, poor ground, and other things can cause bad indications. Tracy On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Mike Fontenot < mikef@apexconsultingservices.com> wrote: > === TRACY, > > >>First question is: Is your mixture monitor is working correctly. Once > you get Mode 3 roughly set at 22" MP, you should be able to run the MI > smoothly up and down with the mixture knob. If not, it's not working well > and that needs to be addressed before going on.<< > > I would say at this point the Mixture Knob definitely works, but the > Mixture Monitor/Indicator on the EM2 seems to jump around. When I move the > Mixture Knob smoothly I do not see a smooth increase or decrease on the > Monitor. It seems to jump around. What suggestions are there for correcting > that? Should I make a better ground to the body of the O2 sensor? That > fixed my Fuel Pump pressure sender reading. Ideas about how to correct this > are appreciated, because right now I don't really know of any. Just too > green. > > Hopefully I will get out and run the engine up again to MAP 22 and observe > this Mixture Indicator specific thing more closely. > > > >>About the MI confusion: > I refer to each character of the two character MI as being composed of 7 or > 8 (depending on display type) bars each for a total of 14 or 16 bars.. > Hence the confusion. 8 bars is about mid scale or 1 full character > position. When doing this initial tuning, you should target where ever > the engine runs strongest. That could be anywhere from 8 to 14 bars but > even this guideline is not etched in stone. There are just too many > variables to nail it down to an absolute number of bars. <<<< > > OK, that explanation helps. I have the LCD version of the EM2. Can you > guys really SEE those individual cells on the EM2??? > > >>When doing this initial tuning, you should target where ever the engine > runs strongest. So, the first question is, Where does your engine run > strongest at 22" of MP? THIS is your target for initial tuning with > mixture knob at 12:00. << > > Let me see if I understand this. For example, at MAP 22 I had the engine > running smooth and what I thought was strong with the Mixture Knob at about > 0100. If I moved the Mixture Knob to 0400 the MAP increased, RPM increased, > engine sounded stronger. And it did not skip or stumble or any of those > other nebulous terms. Does this mean I could/should operate the engine at > this setting, and work to balance the Mode 3 Injector flow with the Mixture > Knob back to 1200? And not worry about what the Mixture Indicator is saying > yet? > > >> Forget about the 1/2 scale theoretical stoic. mixture jazz. Once you > have a handle on things, you can calibrate the EM2 mix monitor reading to be > at mid scale if desired.<< > > OK, that helps. I read into the tuning instructions, and our discussion > back in 2007, that Mid-Scale is gospel. > > === JIM, > > I will look at what kinds of adjustments I can make on the Throttle Body. > Wow, that is low RPM!. I had no idea. Problem is I don't know what I don't > know. > > >>> 1. Manifold leak - if this is the case it should be found and fixed > before any tuning is continued. Check all hoses and fittings on the intake > manifold and throttle body. Check that the throttle is closing all the way. > It may need adjustment. <<< > > What technique do you use for leak detection? > > >>>2. Idle setting on throttle body not properly set. If the throttle body > has a idle speed setting > screw (allows air after the throttle plate) try to turn it to reduce the > idle.<<< > > I will look for that. > > > Thanks again > > -- > Mike > > ================================ > Mike Fontenot > Apex Consulting & Services LLC > Lakewood, Colorado > 303 / 731-6645 > mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com > ================================ > --000e0cd17ea85e52400469abcebf Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK so far except for one detail.=A0 You said:

"Let me see if I = understand this. For example, at MAP 22 I had the engine running smooth and what I thought was strong with the Mixture Knob at about 0100. If I moved the Mixture Knob to 0400 the MAP increased, RPM increased, engine sounded stronger."

All good ex= cept for (again) the MAP increasing.=A0=A0 My guess is that you Assumed tha= t the MAP went up when the RPM went up. =A0 This does not happen under thes= e circumstances without increasing the throttle.=A0 See previous comments o= n this.=A0 Think of the engine as a vacuum pump (it is).=A0 If you do somet= hing to make the engine (vacuum pump) turn faster WITHOUT opening the throt= tle more, the MAP is going to go DOWN (more vacuum), not UP, as the engine = sucks more air through the same restriction.

I only mention this because the one trying to diagnose the problem has = to believe they are getting accurate info.=A0 If not, they tend to give up.=

It does sound like your mixture monitor is not working well.=A0 Are= you saying that the MI jumps around (up and down?) all the time, when you = move the mixture control, random direction=A0 when you move the mix control= , or what?=A0=A0 Position of O2 sensor (too close to end of pipe, too cold = a position, etc), exhaust leaks, engine miss, bad connections, poor ground,= and other things can cause bad indications.

Tracy

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 3:50 P= M, Mike Fontenot <mikef@apexconsultingservices.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 2= 04, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> =3D=3D=3D TRACY,

>>First question is: =A0 Is your mixture moni= tor is working correctly.=A0=A0 Once you get Mode 3 roughly set at 22" MP, you should be able to run the MI smoothly up and down with the mixture knob.=A0 If not, it's not working well and that needs to be addressed before going on.<<
I would say at this point the Mixture Knob definitely works, but the Mixtu= re Monitor/Indicator on the EM2 seems to jump around. When I move the Mixtu= re Knob smoothly I do not see a smooth increase or decrease on the Monitor.= It seems to jump around. What suggestions are there for correcting that?= =A0 Should I make a better ground to the body of the O2 sensor?=A0 That fix= ed my Fuel Pump pressure sender reading. Ideas about how to correct this ar= e appreciated, because right now I don't really know of any. Just too g= reen.

Hopefully I will get out and run the engine up again to MAP 22 and obse= rve this Mixture Indicator specific thing more closely.


>>About the MI confusion:=A0
I refer to each character of the= two character MI as being composed of 7 or 8 (depending on display type) bars each for a total of 14 or 16 bars..=A0 Hence the confusion.=A0 8 bars is about mid scale or 1 full character position.=A0=A0 When doing this initial tuning,=A0 you should target where ever the engine runs strongest.=A0 That could be anywhere from 8 to 14 bars but even this guideline is not etched in stone.=A0 There are just too many variables to nail it down to an absolute number of bars.=A0=A0 <<<<

O= K,=A0 that explanation helps.=A0 I have the LCD version of the EM2.=A0 Can = you guys really SEE those individual cells on the EM2???

>>Wh= en doing this initial tuning,=A0 you should target where ever the engine runs strongest. So, the first question is,=A0 Where does your engine run strongest at 22" of MP?=A0=A0 THIS i= s your target for initial tuning with mixture knob at 12:00. <<

Let m= e see if I understand this. For example, at MAP 22 I had the engine running= smooth and what I thought was strong with the Mixture Knob at about 0100. = If I moved the Mixture Knob to 0400 the MAP increased, RPM increased, engin= e sounded stronger. And it did not skip or stumble or any of those other ne= bulous terms.=A0=A0 Does this mean I could/should operate the engine at thi= s setting, and work to balance the Mode 3 Injector flow with the Mixture Kn= ob back to 1200? And not worry about what the Mixture Indicator is saying y= et?

>> Forget about the 1/2 scale theoretical stoic.=A0 mixture jazz.=A0 Once you have a handle on things, you can calibrate the EM2 mix monitor reading to be at mid scale if desired.<<

OK, that helps. I read into the tuning ins= tructions, and our discussion back in 2007, that Mid-Scale is gospel.

=3D=3D=3D JIM,

I will look at what kinds of adjustments I can ma= ke on the Throttle Body. Wow, that is low RPM!. I had no idea. Problem is I= don't know what I don't know.

>>> 1. Manifol= d leak - if this is the case it should be found and fixed before any tuning is continued. Check all hoses and fittings on the intake manifold and throttle body. Check that the throttle is closing all the way. It may need adjustment. <<<

What techn= ique do you use for leak detection?

>>>2. Idle setting on throttle body not properly set. If the = throttle body has a idle speed setting
screw (allows air after the throttle plate) try to turn it to reduce t= he idle.<<<

I will look for that.


Thanks again

--
Mike

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mike Fontenot
Apex Consulting & Services LLC
Lakewood, Colorado
303 / 731-6645<= br>mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

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