X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.173] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3638862 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 11 May 2009 14:26:38 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.200.173; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 28so2260878wff.25 for ; Mon, 11 May 2009 11:26:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=kpVfXJT5Yi8vQ2QkunhvLZ0PqINYnS1kISXl7qKUH/o=; b=dA7ZWzOwvJxhlpHPdlkZJ+Uq0qZOVSSnfZgTxtqVq+T/BBLTEPR3DDq3B53QNDCLZM 8qnRPxC0OMEMqHrbVWdnCaOTeBMAzPCZf/qKgOddHwwpZOdo16GFA5TmTER5HICiP+DF KFDRBfGE6SXOurUmXS0vmMzjlXGAT4gx0hV7M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=gkyAzUICD2tkdIu7frZ58wuj3Q+NBw9yszdpcJgdIA7D7rUk+H6RGop/yar+ZvOFc6 1ACrzvaOaEdwSYwOw6+TLpmc5ew1jFVXlE8UEzpyEgroayCrow2T9BXolhTLyT2vPyOo 38VrlQ9XhmF/fPVWV88ct8KxQfFHira9hzX3U= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.153.8 with SMTP id a8mr2999404wfe.94.1242066363403; Mon, 11 May 2009 11:26:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 14:26:03 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 23234837a1946eb8 Message-ID: <1b4b137c0905111126t281ad86nceeb2127a9e2536c@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning - Today From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd20b2060d01b0469a71cc1 --000e0cd20b2060d01b0469a71cc1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK Mike, here's where I think we are.. First question is: Is your mixture monitor is working correctly. Once you get Mode 3 roughly set at 22" MP, you should be able to run the MI smoothly up and down with the mixture knob. If not, it's not working well and that needs to be addressed before going on. About the MI confusion: I refer to each character of the two character MI as being composed of 7 or 8 (depending on display type) bars each for a total of 14 or 16 bars.. Hence the confusion. 8 bars is about mid scale or 1 full character position. When doing this initial tuning, you should target where ever the engine runs strongest. That could be anywhere from 8 to 14 bars but even this guideline is not etched in stone. There are just too many variables to nail it down to an absolute number of bars. So, the first question is, Where does your engine run strongest at 22" of MP? THIS is your target for initial tuning with mixture knob at 12:00. Forget about the 1/2 scale theoretical stoic. mixture jazz. Once you have a handle on things, you can calibrate the EM2 mix monitor reading to be at mid scale if desired. As far as where to run the mixture in normal operation, your piston engine is going to be somewhat different than what I specify in the manual which was originally for rotary engines. Rotaries can run with mixture off the bottom of the MI but piston engines will either not run at all or burn valves and/or pistons there. You should be able to lean it down momentarily for testing purposes at mid power settings without damage though Let me know where you are in relation to these two points and if it is making sense to you. Tracy On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Mike Fontenot < mikef@apexconsultingservices.com> wrote: > Tracy (and other), > > First, continued thanks for the feedback. Like Jim said, "You are making > progress". That is very true, I am so far ahead of where I was in August > 2007, when trying to run this engine and the original combination of > igniters/coils burned out at 3300 RPM. I have a much better electrical > system (that I know the details of), control of all the critical circuits, > and the engine RUNS! Good things will come. > > Tracy, good advice to get on the same page with terminology. I will start > with the MIXTURE INDICATOR, rather than a shotgun approach. > > > > 1. EM2 Mixture Indicator (MI) - lets sort this one out, I'll try to explain > how I understand the MI, and hopefully we can come to a common ground. My > notes on tuning keep coming back to the general goal of: "Mixture Knob at > 1200 with Mixture Indicator reading 1 BAR for the engine throttle settings, > except for Idle where you want 60% or 1+ bars". > > My understanding is that the MI on the EM2 Standard Display Page 1 is: > > A. MI is right above the voltage reading (Yes I have EGT connected, now I > know what those other 4 bars are to the right). > B. MI is 2 BARS HIGH TOTAL. So when I say "50%" I mean "1 BAR". If you > define the EM2 display as having 4 LINES, and count > from the top to bottom, Line 1, 2, 3, 4. The MI is at lines 2 and 3. > C. My understanding is that 'stoichoimetric' is at 1 BAR > D. My understanding is that if the MI is below 1 BAR then that indicates > LEAN, and visa versa, above 1 BAR indicates RICH. > E. My understanding for tuning goals, is that when the MIXTURE KNOB is at > 1200 > 1. Low MAP/RPM - my goal is to have the MI reading at 1+ BAR, or around > 60% because a little RICH is better at LOW RPM. > 2. Medium to high MAP/RPM - goal is to have the MI at 1 BAR (or 50%) > 3. High MAP/RPM - goal is to have MI around 1 BAR (or 50%). I want to > avoid running too lean (below 1 BAR / 50%) to > prevent burning vavles, etc. > F. My understanding is that using the EM2 Table View or Track View, the MI > is at the far right and it is a total of 2 BARS > HIGH (again Lines 2 & 3). So the corresponding statements about 1 > BAR/50% hold here as well. > > Tracy you wrote: >>2 bars is less than 20% of full scale. How can it DROP > to 30% from 2 bars? What is your definition of 2 bars? We have an > obvious problem with terminology here.<< > > This has me completely confused, obviously. > > 2. I will work on the electrical/alternator system as a priority. I think I > know where the problem is, should not be hard to fix (I hope). > > 3. Jim: You said I should be able to idle down to 850 RPM. At my lowest > throttle setting, when I start the engine the lowest RPM I've ever seen on > the EM2 is around 1500 RPM. I can't drop it any lower than that, the > throttle level just does > not go any further down. And I am letting it warm up before starting the > tuning. I gotta tell you it is a joy to just sit there and listen to it run > smoothly. > > I'll stop here. Thanks, > > Mike > > PS. is there a way to simply 'REPLY TO' a posting in the flyrotary list, > from that listing page ( > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html )? > > > ================================ > Mike Fontenot > Apex Consulting & Services LLC > Lakewood, Colorado > 303 / 731-6645 > mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com > ================================ > --000e0cd20b2060d01b0469a71cc1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK Mike, here's where I think we are..

First question is: =A0 Is= your mixture monitor is working correctly.=A0=A0 Once you get Mode 3 roughly set at 22" MP, you should be able to run the MI smoothly up and down with the mixture knob.=A0 If not, it's not working well and that needs to be addressed before going on.

About the MI confusion:=A0
I refer to each character of the two cha= racter MI as being composed of 7 or 8 (depending on display type) bars each= for a total of 14 or 16 bars..=A0 Hence the confusion.=A0 8 bars is about = mid scale or 1 full character position.=A0=A0 When doing this initial tunin= g,=A0 you should target where ever the engine runs strongest.=A0 That could= be anywhere from 8 to 14 bars but even this guideline is not etched in sto= ne.=A0 There are just too many variables to nail it down to an absolute num= ber of bars.=A0=A0 So, the first question is,=A0 Where does your engine run= strongest at 22" of MP?=A0=A0 THIS is your target for initial tuning = with mixture knob at 12:00.=A0 Forget about the 1/2 scale theoretical stoic= .=A0 mixture jazz.=A0 Once you have a handle on things, you can calibrate t= he EM2 mix monitor reading to be at mid scale if desired.

As far as where to run the mixture in normal operation, your piston eng= ine is going to be somewhat different than what I specify in the manual whi= ch was originally for rotary engines.=A0 Rotaries can run with mixture off = the bottom of the MI but piston engines will either not run at all or burn = valves and/or pistons there.=A0 You should be able to lean it down momentar= ily for testing purposes at mid power settings without damage though=A0
Let me know where you are in relation to these two points and if it is = making sense to you.

Tracy

On Mon,= May 11, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Mike Fontenot <mikef@apexconsultingservices.com> wrote:
Tracy (and other)= ,

First, continued thanks for the feedback. Like Jim said, "You= are making progress".=A0 That is very true, I am so far ahead of wher= e I was in August 2007, when trying to run this engine and the original com= bination of igniters/coils burned out at 3300 RPM. I have a much better ele= ctrical system (that I know the details of), control of all the critical ci= rcuits, and the engine RUNS! Good things will come.

Tracy, good advice to get on the same page with terminology. I will sta= rt with the MIXTURE INDICATOR, rather than a shotgun approach.


<= br>1. EM2 Mixture Indicator (MI) - lets sort this one out, I'll try to = explain how I understand the MI, and hopefully we can come to a common grou= nd. My notes on tuning keep coming back to the general goal of: "Mixtu= re Knob at 1200 with Mixture Indicator reading 1 BAR for the engine throttl= e settings, except for Idle where you want 60% or 1+ bars".

My understanding is that the MI on the EM2 Standard Display Page 1 is:<= br>
A. MI is right above the voltage reading (Yes I have EGT connected, = now I know what those other 4 bars are to the right).
B. MI is 2 BARS HI= GH TOTAL. So when I say "50%"=A0 I mean "1 BAR". If you= define the EM2 display as having 4 LINES, and count
=A0=A0 from the top to bottom, Line 1, 2, 3, 4.=A0 The MI is at lines 2 and= 3.
C. My understanding is that 'stoichoimetric' is at 1 BAR
= D. My understanding is that if the MI is below 1 BAR then that indicates LE= AN, and visa versa, above 1 BAR indicates RICH.
E. My understanding for tuning goals, is that when the MIXTURE KNOB is at 1= 200
=A0=A0 1. Low MAP/RPM=A0 - my goal is to have the MI reading at 1+ = BAR, or around 60% because a little RICH is better at LOW RPM.
=A0=A0 2.= Medium to high MAP/RPM - goal is to have the MI at 1 BAR (or 50%)
=A0=A0 3. High MAP/RPM - goal is to have MI around 1 BAR (or 50%). I want t= o avoid running too lean (below 1 BAR / 50%) to
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 prevent= burning vavles, etc.
F. My understanding is that using the EM2 Table Vi= ew or Track View, the MI is at the far right and it is a total of 2 BARS =A0=A0 HIGH (again Lines 2 & 3). So the corresponding statements about = 1 BAR/50% hold here as well.

Tracy you wrote: >>2 bars is les= s than 20% of full scale.=A0 How can it DROP to 30% from 2 bars?=A0=A0 What= is your definition of 2 bars?=A0=A0 We have an obvious problem with termin= ology here.<<

This has me completely confused, obviously.

2. I will work on t= he electrical/alternator system as a priority. I think I know where the problem is, should not be hard to fix (I hope).
<= br>3. Jim: You said I should be able to idle down to 850 RPM. At my lowest = throttle setting, when I start the engine the lowest RPM I've ever seen= on the EM2 is around 1500 RPM. I can't drop it any lower than that, th= e throttle level just does
not go any further down. And I am letting it warm up before starting the tu= ning. I gotta tell you it is a joy to just sit there and listen to it run s= moothly.

I'll stop here. Thanks,

Mike

PS. is there a way to simply 'REPLY TO' a posting in the flyrot= ary list, from that listing page ( http://mail.lancaironline.= net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html )?


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mike Fontenot
= Apex Consulting & Services LLC
Lakewood, Colorado
303 / 731-6645<= br>mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

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