X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.92.119] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with SMTP id 3638726 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 11 May 2009 13:24:10 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.147.92.119; envelope-from=delta11xd@att.net Received: (qmail 2596 invoked by uid 60001); 11 May 2009 17:23:36 -0000 Message-ID: <874351.2573.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: iFqrMAoVM1kW0Eeecb_xrRXzK6qQ3ADr8xWZdp_2rsraBQy.t2lfG3KhZc3RDqgxSXpTkBSrcOok9LBwm8wJqRAhRKnqRd7LL1tvQmmJ2yQeAwiq2IZAI3PDjufP7HTuax4AO8kaKtHU3pBtVGAaanJd72yTrY0o7dVm7ZSBzBDBs4qfOLBDE40J5wzsaCOoGsOCGQReuJCWAMDLtzPHTAqFib8d4HtzyYBWz33zmX0mBTcUAKEM0GD0InTN.oiLTOtQs5Dojr.iiXUuJnc_p6fh1A81HTNAK33s5PTVDjbpWofKEk0vtIdEdgQxcECfyQ-- Received: from [76.237.111.116] by web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 11 May 2009 10:23:36 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.7.289.1 Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:23:36 -0700 (PDT) From: James Maher Reply-To: delta11xd@att.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning - Today To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2130880372-1242062616=:2573" --0-2130880372-1242062616=:2573 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, If you can not get the engine to idle below 1500 RPM with the throttle clos= ed either or both of the following conditions could be the cause: 1. Manifold leak - if this is the case it should be found and fixed before = any tuning is continued. Check all hoses and fittings on the intake manifol= d and throttle body. Check that the throttle is closing all the way. It may= need adjustment. 2. Idle setting on throttle body not properly set. If the throttle body has= a idle speed setting screw (allows air after the throttle plate) try to turn it to reduce the id= le. Again 1500 RPM is okay when the engine is cold but once it warms up 850 RPM= should be easily achievable. =A0 Jim --- On Mon, 5/11/09, Mike Fontenot wrote= : From: Mike Fontenot Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning - Today To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Date: Monday, May 11, 2009, 10:50 AM Tracy (and other), First, continued thanks for the feedback. Like Jim said, "You are making pr= ogress".=A0 That is very true, I am so far ahead of where I was in August 2= 007, when trying to run this engine and the original combination of igniter= s/coils burned out at 3300 RPM. I have a much better electrical system (tha= t I know the details of), control of all the critical circuits, and the eng= ine RUNS! Good things will come. Tracy, good advice to get on the same page with terminology. I will start w= ith the MIXTURE INDICATOR, rather than a shotgun approach. 1. EM2 Mixture Indicator (MI) - lets sort this one out, I'll try to explain= how I understand the MI, and hopefully we can come to a common ground. My = notes on tuning keep coming back to the general goal of: "Mixture Knob at 1= 200 with Mixture Indicator reading 1 BAR for the engine throttle settings, = except for Idle where you want 60% or 1+ bars".=20 My understanding is that the MI on the EM2 Standard Display Page 1 is: A. MI is right above the voltage reading (Yes I have EGT connected, now I k= now what those other 4 bars are to the right). B. MI is 2 BARS HIGH TOTAL. So when I say "50%"=A0 I mean "1 BAR". If you d= efine the EM2 display as having 4 LINES, and count =A0=A0 from the top to bottom, Line 1, 2, 3, 4.=A0 The MI is at lines 2 and= 3. C. My understanding is that 'stoichoimetric' is at 1 BAR D. My understanding is that if the MI is below 1 BAR then that indicates LE= AN, and visa versa, above 1 BAR indicates RICH. E. My understanding for tuning goals, is that when the MIXTURE KNOB is at 1= 200=20 =A0=A0 1. Low MAP/RPM=A0 - my goal is to have the MI reading at 1+ BAR, or = around 60% because a little RICH is better at LOW RPM. =A0=A0 2. Medium to high MAP/RPM - goal is to have the MI at 1 BAR (or 50%) =A0=A0 3. High MAP/RPM - goal is to have MI around 1 BAR (or 50%). I want t= o avoid running too lean (below 1 BAR / 50%) to=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 prevent burning vavles, etc. F. My understanding is that using the EM2 Table View or Track View, the MI = is at the far right and it is a total of 2 BARS =A0=A0 HIGH (again Lines 2 & 3). So the corresponding statements about 1 BA= R/50% hold here as well.=20 Tracy you wrote: >>2 bars is less than 20% of full scale.=A0 How can it DRO= P to 30% from 2 bars?=A0=A0 What is your definition of 2 bars?=A0=A0 We hav= e an obvious problem with terminology here.<< This has me completely confused, obviously.=20 2. I will work on the electrical/alternator system as a priority. I think I= know where the problem is, should not be hard to fix (I hope). 3. Jim: You said I should be able to idle down to 850 RPM. At my lowest thr= ottle setting, when I start the engine the lowest RPM I've ever seen on the= EM2 is around 1500 RPM. I can't drop it any lower than that, the throttle = level just does not go any further down. And I am letting it warm up before starting the tu= ning. I gotta tell you it is a joy to just sit there and listen to it run s= moothly. I'll stop here. Thanks, Mike PS. is there a way to simply 'REPLY TO' a posting in the flyrotary list, fr= om that listing page ( http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html )?=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Mike Fontenot Apex Consulting & Services LLC Lakewood, Colorado 303 / 731-6645 mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --0-2130880372-1242062616=:2573 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,
If you can not get the engine to idle below 1500 RPM with the throttle= closed either or both of the following conditions could be the cause:
1. Manifold leak - if this is the case it should be found and fixed be= fore any tuning is continued. Check all hoses and fittings on the intake ma= nifold and throttle body. Check that the throttle is closing all the way. I= t may need adjustment.
2. Idle setting on throttle body not properly set. If the throttle bod= y has a idle speed setting
screw (allows air after the throttle plate) try to turn it to reduce t= he idle.
Again 1500 RPM is okay when the engine is cold but once it warms up 85= 0 RPM should be easily achievable.
 
Jim

--- On Mon, 5/11/09, Mike Fontenot <m= ikef@apexconsultingservices.com> wrote:
From: Mike Fontenot <mikef@apexconsultingservices.= com>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Tuning - Today
To: "Rotary m= otors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date: Monday, May= 11, 2009, 10:50 AM

Tracy (and other),

First, continued thanks f= or the feedback. Like Jim said, "You are making progress".  That is ve= ry true, I am so far ahead of where I was in August 2007, when trying to ru= n this engine and the original combination of igniters/coils burned out at = 3300 RPM. I have a much better electrical system (that I know the details o= f), control of all the critical circuits, and the engine RUNS! Good things = will come.

Tracy, good advice to get on the same page with terminolo= gy. I will start with the MIXTURE INDICATOR, rather than a shotgun approach= .



1. EM2 Mixture Indicator (MI) - lets sort this one out, I'= ll try to explain how I understand the MI, and hopefully we can come to a c= ommon ground. My notes on tuning keep coming back to the general goal of: "= Mixture Knob at 1200 with Mixture Indicator reading 1 BAR for the engine th= rottle settings, except for Idle where you want 60% or 1+ bars".

My understanding is that the MI on the EM2 Standard Display Page 1= is:

A. MI is right above the voltage reading (Yes I have EGT connec= ted, now I know what those other 4 bars are to the right).
B. MI is 2 BA= RS HIGH TOTAL. So when I say "50%"  I mean "1 BAR". If you define the = EM2 display as having 4 LINES, and count
   from the top to bo= ttom, Line 1, 2, 3, 4.  The MI is at lines 2 and 3.
C. My understan= ding is that 'stoichoimetric' is at 1 BAR
D. My understanding is that if= the MI is below 1 BAR then that indicates LEAN, and visa versa, above 1 BA= R indicates RICH.
E. My understanding for tuning goals, is that when the= MIXTURE KNOB is at 1200
   1. Low MAP/RPM  - my goal is= to have the MI reading at 1+ BAR, or around 60% because a little RICH is b= etter at LOW RPM.
   2. Medium to high MAP/RPM - goal is to ha= ve the MI at 1 BAR (or 50%)
   3. High MAP/RPM - goal is to have MI around 1 BAR (or 50%). I want to avoid running too lean (bel= ow 1 BAR / 50%) to
      prevent burning vavle= s, etc.
F. My understanding is that using the EM2 Table View or Track Vi= ew, the MI is at the far right and it is a total of 2 BARS
   = HIGH (again Lines 2 & 3). So the corresponding statements about 1 BAR/5= 0% hold here as well.

Tracy you wrote: >>2 bars is less than = 20% of full scale.  How can it DROP to 30% from 2 bars?   Wh= at is your definition of 2 bars?   We have an obvious problem wit= h terminology here.<<

This has me completely confused, obvious= ly.

2. I will work on the electrical/alternator system as a priorit= y. I think I know where the problem is, should not be hard to fix (I hope).=

3. Jim: You said I should be able to idle down to 850 RPM. At my lo= west throttle setting, when I start the engine the lowest RPM I've ever seen on the EM2 is around 1500 RPM. I can't drop it any lower than th= at, the throttle level just does
not go any further down. And I am letti= ng it warm up before starting the tuning. I gotta tell you it is a joy to j= ust sit there and listen to it run smoothly.

I'll stop here. Thanks,=

Mike

PS. is there a way to simply 'REPLY TO' a p= osting in the flyrotary list, from that listing page ( http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html )? <= BR>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mike Fontenot
Apex Consulting &= Services LLC
Lakewood, Colorado
303 / 731-6645
mikef AT apexconsu= ltingservices DOT com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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