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(d154-5-222-193.bchsia.telus.net [154.5.222.193]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f20sm9514323waf.17.2009.05.04.01.38.44 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 04 May 2009 01:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Harley Davidson Generator From: Todd Bartrim To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-hNk2tAarhdVAKaGdwv9Y" Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 01:37:10 -0700 Message-Id: <1241426230.12321.6.camel@Endurance> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.26.1 --=-hNk2tAarhdVAKaGdwv9Y Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi George; Yes, but I don't want to start messing with that. I want to make this installation work without having to have parts custom made. It is enough that the stock parts will have to be altered somewhat. What I'm aiming for a relatively simple installation that others could also use if this proves successful. Custom flywheels sounds like an opportunity for unknown gotchas. Todd C-FSTB On Mon, 2009-05-04 at 07:43 +1000, George Lendich wrote: >  > > Todd, > Just a suggestion, would a custom (flat) fly wheel give any extra > room. > George (down under) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Todd Bartrim > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 7:14 PM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Harley Davidson Generator > > > > I just spent another hour measuring and thinking and > tinkering. I overestimated how much I can gain by moving the > steel hub to the backside of the dampener plate. It will only > gain me 5/32", but the rivet heads are another 3/32" so these > can be changed to countersunk rivet heads to give me a total > additional clearance of 1/4", which will also facilitate > mounting the rotor to the dampener plate. This will give me 1 > 7/16" clearance to fit in the rotor. > A closer look at the rotor shows that the magnets are > completely to the back edge of the rotor cup, so there is no > further machining of this possible. I don't expect the magnets > would stand up to any machining very well. However the face of > the stator cup is 3/16" thick so I could take 3/32" off this > face. Since it will be mounted directly to the dampener face > it won't be driven by the splined shaft, so this should be > fine. This should make the stator 1 27/64" thick giving me > clearance of 1/64". Cutting it pretty darned close but it > should work. > My biggest concern is that the steel center hub of the > dampener plate that mates with the splined input shaft is > moved back resulting in 11/32" less spline contact, from an > original 1 13/16" down to 1 5/8" of spline contact. "Should" > be enough? Might have to get a "special" input shaft? > > About the only other thing that I see that might be necessary > is a slight circular groove on the back of the RD-1 mount > plate to allow a little more clearance for the windings on the > stator. This might not be required however the windings are > not perfectly equal around the stator, with the occasional one > needing a little more clearance. This circular groove would > only have to be slight and would be located within the circle > of bolts for the RD-1 so would have no issues with > interference or compromising strength. > > For those interested in weight (and why not) the stator and > rotor weigh a combined 6.17 lbs > > Todd > C-FSTB > > > > On Sat, 2009-05-02 at 23:06 -0700, Todd Bartrim wrote: > > > Hi Ernest, Kelly and others; > > I promised myself I wasn't going to do any experimenting > > this time around, but here I go again..... > > Today I went down to the local Harley shop and lost $381cad. > > And I just have the rotor and stator to show for it. I still > > need to buy the regulator, but I figure I shouldn't throw > > that money away until I can definitively make this work. > > Kelly, you probably did the right thing by ordering from > > Compu-Fire, but there is something to be said for holding > > the parts in your hand and fitting & measuring it first. The > > store owner is also a pilot and was quite helpful when I > > told him what it was for. These are genuine Harley parts, so > > surely I paid for that privilege as well. > > Stator 32amp #29970-88DHD > > Rotor #29957-81BHD > > Unfortunately, while I think I can make this work, it ain't > > gonna be easy. It's going to require a few mods to the RD-1 > > mounting plate and to the flex plate dampener. The rotor > > will also require some alterations. This rotor is 1.52" > > thick and the space currently available between the dampener > > and the mount plate is 1 3/16". And the edge of the rotor > > also lines up with the ring of bolt heads holding the RD-1 > > together. To accommodate this I plan to countersink these > > bolt heads so they are flush with the mount plate. There > > also needs to be a path for the stator wire to pass under > > the edge of the rotor. I plan to machine a slot 3/16" deep x > > 1/4" wide x 1.5" long into the backside of the mount plate. > > There will have to be several mount bolts to fasten the > > stator in place which will pass through the mount plate into > > the oil filled internals of the RD-1. I plan to drill these > > holes and then machine an o-ring groove under the bolt > > heads. I believe these will be located in an area where they > > will not interfere with the sun gear so they will not need > > to be countersunk. That should be all that's required of the > > mount plate, but that still only leaves 1 3/16" to fit in a > > 1.52" thick rotor. > > The rotor will require the splined center to be enlarged > > to fit over the dampener. I'll have this done on a lathe and > > while it's on there, I'll have a little taken off both the > > face and the back edge. I'll gain very little here, but I'll > > also ensure that they are true. > > Now the dampener is where I think I can make the > > required gains. The steel center hub is riveted to the front > > side of the aluminium dampener plate. I think I can relocate > > this hub to the back side of the dampener plate. This should > > give me an extra 3/8" to work with. The backside of the > > center hub on this dampener plate will likely have to have > > 1/8" taken off the center to allow for the flywheel nut, but > > there is lots of material here. This part is a little hard > > to describe so I'll take pics as I go. And surely there'll > > be something I'm overlooking. But I'm betting $381 that I > > can do it. > > This will require the services of a machinist and as > > luck would have it, the latest guy I signed onto play on my > > hockey team happens to be a machinist out at the mill I work > > at. So I'll get him working on some of this next week. > > > > Todd > > C-FSTB > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 2009-05-02 at 23:53 +0000, Kelly Troyer wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Ernest and Todd, > > > Ernest what is output amps of the system that you > > > bought ??.............I just sprung for the > > > "Compu-Fire" 40 amp system................Link > > > attached...............Sure hope it works as it is > > > fairly pricey................I have plenty of room for it > > > since I am using a auto trans bell housing > > > between engine and RD1C redrive............. > > > > > > http://www.compufire.com/harley-main.html > > > -- > > > Kelly Troyer > > > "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine > > > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > > > "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message from Ernest > > > Christley : -------------- > > > > > > > > > > Todd Bartrim wrote: > > > > > Thanks for the quick reply Ernest. I didn't > > > expect you up so late on > > > > > your side of the continent. > > > > I've been trying to get a business going. > > > Selling software for the > > > > sport of wrestling. It seems like I don't ever > > > sleep anymore. > > > > > > > > > Is yours a genuine Harley part? > > > > No. It's an aftermarket part. > > > > > How about dimensions? > > > > > -OD of the rotor > > > > Just over 6". You'll want at least 6.25" for > > > clearance. From memory, > > > > ID is just over 1.5" I believe. It's a fairly > > > tight fit on the sun gear > > > > shaft. I believe the shear bolts are a 4" > > > spacing. > > > > > > > > > -ID of the stator > > > > It's all put together, so that number is rather > > > difficult to come by > > > > right now. I believe it is right at 3". I'm > > > thinking the bolt circle > > > > was 3.375" diameter, but I'm going to have to > > > reserve the right to be wrong. > > > > > -Thickness > > > > 1.75" > > > > > > > > > > > > I fabricated a fiberglass shield that sits > > > between the stator and PSRU. > > > > The object being to keep trash out of the > > > rotor. --=-hNk2tAarhdVAKaGdwv9Y Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi George;
    Yes, but I don't want to start messing with that. I want= to make this installation work without having to have parts custom made. I= t is enough that the stock parts will have to be altered somewhat. What I'm= aiming for a relatively simple installation that others could also use if = this proves successful. Custom flywheels sounds like an opportunity for unk= nown gotchas.

Todd
C-FSTB

On Mon, 2009-05-04 at 07:43 +1000, George Lendich wrote:
=20
Todd,
Just a suggestion, would a custom (flat) fly wheel giv= e any extra room.
George (down under)
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Todd Bartrim=20
To: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft=20
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 7:14 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Harley Davidson Generator


I just spent another hour measuring and thinking and tinkering. I o= verestimated how much I can gain by moving the steel hub to the backside of= the dampener plate. It will only gain me 5/32", but the rivet heads a= re another 3/32" so these can be changed to countersunk rivet heads to= give me a total additional clearance of 1/4", which will also facilit= ate mounting the rotor to the dampener plate. This will give me 1 7/16"= ; clearance to fit in the rotor.
     A closer look at the rotor shows that the = magnets are completely to the back edge of the rotor cup, so there is no fu= rther machining of this possible. I don't expect the magnets would stand up= to any machining very well. However the face of the stator cup is 3/16&quo= t; thick so I could take 3/32" off this face. Since it will be mounted= directly to the dampener face it won't be driven by the splined shaft, so = this should be fine. This should make the stator 1 27/64" thick giving= me clearance of 1/64". Cutting it pretty darned close but it should w= ork.
    My biggest concern is that the steel center hub = of the dampener plate that mates with the splined input shaft is moved back= resulting in 11/32" less spline contact, from an original 1 13/16&quo= t; down to 1 5/8" of spline contact. "Should" be enough? Mig= ht have to get a "special" input shaft?

About the only other thing that I see that might be necessary is a = slight circular groove on the back of the RD-1 mount plate to allow a littl= e more clearance for the windings on the stator. This might not be required= however the windings are not perfectly equal around the stator, with the o= ccasional one needing a little more clearance. This circular groove would o= nly have to be slight and would be located within the circle of bolts for t= he RD-1 so would have no issues with interference or compromising strength.=

For those interested in weight (and why not) the stator and rotor w= eigh a combined 6.17 lbs

Todd
C-FSTB

On Sat, 2009-05-02 at 23:06 -0700, Todd Bartrim wrote:
Hi Ernest, Kelly and others;
    I promised myself I wasn't going to do any e= xperimenting this time around, but here I go again.....
Today I went down to the local Harley shop and lost $381cad. An= d I just have the rotor and stator to show for it. I still need to buy the = regulator, but I figure I shouldn't throw that money away until I can defin= itively make this work. Kelly, you probably did the right thing by ordering= from Compu-Fire, but there is something to be said for holding the parts i= n your hand and fitting & measuring it first. The store owner is also a= pilot and was quite helpful when I told him what it was for. These are gen= uine Harley parts, so surely I paid for that privilege as well.
    Stator 32amp #29970-88DHD
    Rotor #29957-81BHD
Unfortunately, while I think I can make this work, it ain't gon= na be easy. It's going to require a few mods to the RD-1 mounting plate and= to the flex plate dampener. The rotor will also require some alterations. = This rotor is 1.52" thick and the space currently available between th= e dampener and the mount plate is 1 3/16". And the edge of the rotor a= lso lines up with the ring of bolt heads holding the RD-1 together. To acco= mmodate this I plan to countersink these bolt heads so they are flush with = the mount plate. There also needs to be a path for the stator wire to pass = under the edge of the rotor. I plan to machine a slot 3/16" deep x 1/4= " wide x 1.5" long into the backside of the mount plate. There wi= ll have to be several mount bolts to fasten the stator in place which will = pass through the mount plate into the oil filled internals of the RD-1. I p= lan to drill these holes and then machine an o-ring groove under the bolt h= eads. I believe these will be located in an area where they will not interf= ere with the sun gear so they will not need to be countersunk. That should = be all that's required of the mount plate, but that still only leaves 1 3/1= 6" to fit in a 1.52" thick rotor.
    The rotor will require the splined center to= be enlarged to fit over the dampener. I'll have this done on a lathe and w= hile it's on there, I'll have a little taken off both the face and the back= edge. I'll gain very little here, but I'll also ensure that they are true.=
    Now the dampener is where I think I can make= the required gains. The steel center hub is riveted to the front side of t= he aluminium dampener plate. I think I can relocate this hub to the back si= de of the dampener plate. This should give me an extra 3/8" to work wi= th. The backside of the center hub on this dampener plate will likely have = to have 1/8" taken off the center to allow for the flywheel nut, but t= here is lots of material here. This part is a little hard to describe so I'= ll take pics as I go. And surely there'll be something I'm overlooking. But= I'm betting $381 that I can do it.
    This will require the services of a machinis= t and as luck would have it, the latest guy I signed onto play on my hockey= team happens to be a machinist out at the mill I work at. So I'll get him = working on some of this next week.

Todd
C-FSTB

On Sat, 2009-05-02 at 23:53 +0000, Kelly Troyer wrote:

 
Ernest and Todd,
       Ernest what is output = amps of the system that you bought ??.............I just sprung for the
"Compu-Fire" 40 amp system................Link at= tached...............Sure hope it works as it is
fairly pricey................I have plenty of room for it s= ince I am using a auto trans bell housing
between engine and RD1C redrive.............
 
http:= //www.compufire.com/harley-main.html
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

-------------- Original message from Ernest Christley &= lt;echristley@nc.rr.com>: --------------


> Todd Bartrim wrote:
> > Thanks for the quick reply Ernest. I didn't e= xpect you up so late on
> > your side of the continent.
> I've been trying to get a business going. Selling = software for the
> sport of wrestling. It seems like I don't ever sle= ep anymore.
>
> > Is yours a genuine Harley part?
> No. It's an aftermarket part.
> > How about dimensions?
> > -OD of the rotor
> Just over 6". You'll want at least 6.25"= for clearance. From memory,
> ID is just over 1.5" I believe. It's a fairly= tight fit on the sun gear
> shaft. I believe the shear bolts are a 4" spa= cing.
>
> > -ID of the stator
> It's all put together, so that number is rather di= fficult to come by
> right now. I believe it is right at 3". I'm t= hinking the bolt circle
> was 3.375" diameter, but I'm going to have to= reserve the right to be wrong.
> > -Thickness
> 1.75"
>
>
> I fabricated a fiberglass shield that sits between= the stator and PSRU.
> The object being to keep trash out of the rotor.=20
--=-hNk2tAarhdVAKaGdwv9Y--