X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.92.26] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3630979 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 04 May 2009 03:25:20 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=74.125.92.26; envelope-from=fluffysheap@gmail.com Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 8so2700254qwh.25 for ; Mon, 04 May 2009 00:24:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=rhk8ZCPUqcMTx6ipR4XqlBCgkJgoansEOdu8WCgmZKs=; b=V33WnH9wTkXft4f/KKUgx5YeSbYIUpICNICYB+VwC1dXzRBTLgbahh5UDy8AlwKkyH Oo+fC/t5OBUx3+QLGlLbzht/a6xU4e9forr3IbFzAYFi6r/DPGOhUxZchKVh8LKrWZhb 3GxmOjg6KvmI5HenTMZ1M2E/6hk9LJvnvw0WE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=dGgrBHdmJhFMUr1hXF4pGZtv/o9+zn30akQxu0yuIKg6EDJ0Ie+dvux8VnUW/Ecptv AnxQjxJ60kO+3oyS8Vy1+sON+BxWC6q+oPrLo+8ZTsAMS8HxcPpUVJm1+MOK9TfsGPL3 i7xBK3BfcUuR/pwqwwCtCT6nKgsY0jrCkLunM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.75.19 with SMTP id w19mr8119380vcj.110.1241421883471; Mon, 04 May 2009 00:24:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 00:24:43 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Engine (not) starting with EC2 - suggestions appreciated! From: William Wilson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e647ecfc6177f00469110e96 --0016e647ecfc6177f00469110e96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blue smoke is typically oil, fuel smoke is usually more of a gray color, no= t really blue. If engine has way too much fuel and does not start, it will b= e flooded, you will be able to smell the gas. I suspect timing... and also make sure you have got your ignition wires hooked up to the right cylinders. If all else fails remove engine and replace with a rotary On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 9:26 PM, James Maher wrote: > Mike, > First off great choice of engines. > If is has to be a piston engine the Geo 1.3L is a very good > reliable choice. > I completely agree with Ed's analysis of your engine's condition and > probable issue. > According to my Geo Metro manual the timing should be 10 deg.BTDC at > 700-800 RPM. > The firing order for the 1.3L is 1 3 4 2. Be sure that you have that > correct as well. > Blue smoke could also be the result of any oil that may have found it way > into the cylinders. > Let us know about your progress. > > Jim > > --- On *Sun, 5/3/09, Ed Anderson * wrote: > > From: Ed Anderson > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Engine (not) starting with EC2 - > suggestions appreciated! > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Date: Sunday, May 3, 2009, 7:01 PM > > > Hi Mike, > > > > As I understand your situation, you had the engine running for an hour > previously until the ignitor/coil combination burned out. You then > redesigned your electrical system using Bob K=92s Z19 diagram. Now you c= an > not get the engine to start and all test=92s appear OK. > > > > The first axiom of trouble shooting is if things worked before a change a= nd > no longer work after a change suspect some problem with what you changed, > which sounds like the entire electrical system. > > > > Your injectors are clicking and your spark is sparking if I understand yo= ur > injector and coil test. So you should have fuel and fire. That would le= ad > me to suspect that either you are getting too much fuel or perhaps your > ignition timing is not adjusted properly. > > > > I presume you have checked your static timing mark and that is also OK? = I > don=92t know what it should be for the GEO but for the rotary its set aro= und > 30Deg BTDC. But blue smoke sounds like too much fuel to me =96 that coul= d be > from too much being injected or perhaps more likely - an accumulation of > fuel due to failed starts. My experience is =93coughs=94 as contrasted w= ith > =93pops=94 tends to indicate a rich mixture while =93Pops=92 a lean mixtu= re. > > > > Assuming that your fuel map and EC2 settings are the same before and afte= r > wiring change, then I would assume you are getting correct fuel =96 that = would > tend then to leave ignition or timing. Since you are getting spark (Coil > test =96 OK), I would suspect ignition timing. > > > > My recommendation is to ensure that your static timing for your ignition = is > what it should be. > > > > I will take a look at Z19, but it would be helpful if you have a copy of > your wiring diagram as it is in you installation posted to the list. > > > > Ed > Ed Anderson > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > Matthews, NC > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > http://www.andersonee.com > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > http://www.flyrotary.com/ > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mike Fontenot > *Sent:* Sunday, May 03, 2009 5:22 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Initial Engine (not) starting with EC2 - > suggestions appreciated! > > > > I have just this weekend gotten my rebuilt electrical system to the point > of being able to try and start the engine. I thought I would post what is > going on so far, and ask for any advice and suggestions about continued > debugging. I'm a noob at this so suggestions are appreciated. Thanks in > advance! > > I have the EC2 + EM 2 system, on a GEO 1.3 liter 4 cylinder engine. The > electrical system is a 'Z-19', (a la Aeroelectric Connection). The brand > new engine was last started in July 2007 and run for about 1 hour with th= e > EC2/EM2 to a maximum RPM of about 3200, but with different coils. The > igniter/coil combination burned out, thus leading to the electrical syste= m > redesign. The entire electrical system has been replaced with the Z19. > > Here is what I have so far: > > 5/2/2009- EC2 Diagnostic checks: > EC2 relay check for A & B controller - OK > Injector test - OK > Coil test - OK > EC2 Knob checks (Hex readout) - OK > > 5/3/2009 > Crank Sensor test - OK > Fuel pressure - FP 1 brings pressure to 43 psi. FP 1 + 2 raises pressure = to > 46 psi. Sound of FP 1 is a steady whine. Sound of FP 2 is kind of up and > down, but pressure remains at 43 without variation. The two fuel pumps a= re > purchased from Tracy/RWS. > > When attempting to start a small amount of blue smoke is seen from the > muffler. Not much. A few times it sounded like it almost started, but did > not. That is the exception. For the majority of attempts to start, the > starter motor turns the prop over and the engine coughs but does not star= t. > > Thanks! > > -- > Mike > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Mike Fontenot > Apex Consulting & Services LLC > Lakewood , Colorado > 303 / 731-6645 > mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > --0016e647ecfc6177f00469110e96 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blue smoke is typically oil, fuel smoke is usually more of a gray color, no= t really blue.=A0 If engine has way too much fuel and does not start, it wi= ll be flooded, you will be able to smell the gas.

I suspect timing..= . and also make sure you have got your ignition wires hooked up to the righ= t cylinders.

If all else fails remove engine and replace with a rotary

On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 9:26 PM, James Maher <delta11xd@att.net>= wrote:
Mike,
First off great choice of engines.
If is has to be a piston engine the=A0Geo 1.3L is a very good reliable= =A0choice.
I completely agree with Ed's analysis of your engine's conditi= on and probable issue.
According to my Geo Metro=A0manual the timing should be 10 deg.BTDC at= 700-800 RPM.
The firing order for the 1.3L is 1 3 4 2. Be sure that you have that c= orrect as well.
Blue smoke could also be the result of any oil that may have found it = way into the cylinders.
Let us know about your progress.
=A0
Jim

--- On Sun, 5/3/09, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com= > wrote:
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
Sub= ject: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Engine (not) starting with EC2 -= suggestions appreciated!
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
= Date: Sunday, May 3, 2009, 7:01 PM

Hi Mike,

=A0

As I understand your situation, yo= u had the engine running for an hour previously until the ignitor/coil comb= ination burned out.=A0 You then redesigned your electrical system using Bob= K=92s Z19 diagram.=A0 Now you can not get the engine to start and all test= =92s appear OK.

=A0

The first axiom of trouble sho= oting is if things worked before a change and no longer work after a change= suspect some problem with what you changed, which sounds like the entire e= lectrical system.=A0

=A0

Your injectors are clicking an= d your spark is sparking if I understand your injector and coil test.=A0 So= you should have fuel and fire.=A0 That would lead me to suspect that eithe= r you are getting too much fuel or perhaps your ignition timing is not adju= sted properly.

=A0

=A0I presume you have checked = your static timing mark and that is also OK?=A0 I don=92t know what it shou= ld be for the GEO but for the rotary its set around 30Deg BTDC.=A0 But blue= smoke sounds like too much fuel to me =96 that could be from too much bein= g injected or perhaps more likely - an accumulation of fuel due to failed s= tarts.=A0 My experience is =93coughs=94 as contrasted with =93pops=94 tends= to indicate a rich mixture while =93Pops=92 a lean mixture.=A0

=A0

Assuming that your fuel map an= d EC2 settings are the same before and after wiring change, then I would as= sume you are getting correct fuel =96 that would tend then to leave ignitio= n or timing. =A0Since you are getting spark (Coil test =96 OK), I would sus= pect ignition timing.

=A0

My recommendation is to ensure= that your static timing for your ignition is what it should be.

=A0

I will take a look at Z19, but= it would be helpful if you have a copy of your wiring diagram as it is in = you installation posted to the list.

=A0

Ed

Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary = Powered
Matthews, NC<= /font>

From: Ro= tary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Fontenot
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009= 5:22 PM
To: Rotary mot= ors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Initial Engine (not) starting with EC2 - suggestions apprecia= ted!

=A0

I have just this weekend gotten my rebuilt electrical system to the = point of being able to try and start the engine. I thought I would post wha= t is going on so far, and ask for any advice and suggestions about continue= d debugging. I'm a noob at this so suggestions are appreciated. Thanks = in advance!

I have the EC2 + EM 2 system, on a GEO 1.3 liter 4 cylinder engine. The= electrical system is a 'Z-19', (a la Aeroelectric Connection).=A0 = The brand new engine was last started in July 2007 and run for about 1 hour= with the EC2/EM2 to a maximum RPM of about 3200, but with different coils.= The igniter/coil combination burned out, thus leading to the electrical sy= stem redesign. The entire electrical system has been replaced with the Z19.=

Here is what I have so far:

5/2/2009- EC2 Diagnostic checks:
= EC2 relay check for A & B controller - OK
Injector test - OK
Coil test - OK
EC2 Knob checks (Hex readout= ) - OK

5/3/2009
Crank Sensor test - OK
Fuel pressure - FP 1 br= ings pressure to 43 psi. FP 1 + 2 raises pressure to 46 psi. Sound of FP 1 = is a steady whine. Sound of FP 2 is kind of up and down, but pressure remai= ns at 43 without variation.=A0 The two fuel pumps are purchased from Tracy/= RWS.

When attempting to start a small amount of blue smoke is seen from the = muffler. Not much. A few times it sounded like it almost started, but did n= ot. That is the exception. For the majority of attempts to start, the start= er motor turns the prop over and the engine coughs but does not start.

Thanks!

--
Mike

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
Mike Fontenot
Apex Consulting & Services LLC
Lakewood , Color= ado
303 / 731-6645
mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


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