X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.92.99] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with SMTP id 3631006 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 04 May 2009 00:27:26 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.147.92.99; envelope-from=delta11xd@att.net Received: (qmail 29458 invoked by uid 60001); 4 May 2009 04:26:50 -0000 Message-ID: <401701.28674.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: PahQdNwVM1ljZNSK1NDX4GFRr7QrVYgBRfD53fidklzhN9dHcjhb4OKK5aeLmYUCN1YWW8IWdvZIuGWIqJr4bU9GZ.OeKQ7CSjFbfHfAbZYsXtm6DV2I5RxlIjuae9qK.R7yZPQmfi.ZFXuEDo9aV4wL5EDvNu377FuWRPdV0uF6wd0ZXTZPROZkaqMyWsD2RPJBL4POtpNoZEafbB4JqWSG6iRkcukCvEeI2eCuLR4S8nMSNaqbs2JOPqeS07Ic_98vKr05_z2fQoUmarwY2n_N6ZUczuynkEKdIELteEof.A-- Received: from [76.237.111.116] by web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 03 May 2009 21:26:50 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.7.289.1 Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 21:26:50 -0700 (PDT) From: James Maher Reply-To: delta11xd@att.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Engine (not) starting with EC2 - suggestions appreciated! To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1567240619-1241411210=:28674" --0-1567240619-1241411210=:28674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, First off great choice of engines.=20 If is has to be a piston engine the=C2=A0Geo 1.3L is a very good reliable= =C2=A0choice. I completely agree with Ed's analysis of your engine's condition and probab= le issue. According to my Geo Metro=C2=A0manual the timing should be 10 deg.BTDC at 7= 00-800 RPM. The firing order for the 1.3L is 1 3 4 2. Be sure that you have that correc= t as well. Blue smoke could also be the result of any oil that may have found it way i= nto the cylinders. Let us know about your progress. =C2=A0 Jim --- On Sun, 5/3/09, Ed Anderson wrote: From: Ed Anderson Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Engine (not) starting with EC2 - suggestio= ns appreciated! To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Date: Sunday, May 3, 2009, 7:01 PM Hi Mike, =C2=A0 As I understand your situation, you had the engine running for an hour prev= iously until the ignitor/coil combination burned out.=C2=A0 You then redesi= gned your electrical system using Bob K=E2=80=99s Z19 diagram.=C2=A0 Now yo= u can not get the engine to start and all test=E2=80=99s appear OK. =C2=A0 The first axiom of trouble shooting is if things worked before a change and= no longer work after a change suspect some problem with what you changed, = which sounds like the entire electrical system.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 Your injectors are clicking and your spark is sparking if I understand your= injector and coil test.=C2=A0 So you should have fuel and fire.=C2=A0 That= would lead me to suspect that either you are getting too much fuel or perh= aps your ignition timing is not adjusted properly.=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I presume you have checked your static timing mark and that is also O= K?=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t know what it should be for the GEO but for the rot= ary its set around 30Deg BTDC.=C2=A0 But blue smoke sounds like too much fu= el to me =E2=80=93 that could be from too much being injected or perhaps mo= re likely - an accumulation of fuel due to failed starts.=C2=A0 My experien= ce is =E2=80=9Ccoughs=E2=80=9D as contrasted with =E2=80=9Cpops=E2=80=9D te= nds to indicate a rich mixture while =E2=80=9CPops=E2=80=99 a lean mixture.= =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 Assuming that your fuel map and EC2 settings are the same before and after = wiring change, then I would assume you are getting correct fuel =E2=80=93 t= hat would tend then to leave ignition or timing. =C2=A0Since you are gettin= g spark (Coil test =E2=80=93 OK), I would suspect ignition timing.=20 =C2=A0 My recommendation is to ensure that your static timing for your ignition is= what it should be. =C2=A0 I will take a look at Z19, but it would be helpful if you have a copy of yo= ur wiring diagram as it is in you installation posted to the list. =C2=A0 Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Mike Fontenot Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 5:22 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Initial Engine (not) starting with EC2 - suggestions a= ppreciated! =C2=A0 I have just this weekend gotten my rebuilt electrical system to the point o= f being able to try and start the engine. I thought I would post what is go= ing on so far, and ask for any advice and suggestions about continued debug= ging. I'm a noob at this so suggestions are appreciated. Thanks in advance! I have the EC2 + EM 2 system, on a GEO 1.3 liter 4 cylinder engine. The ele= ctrical system is a 'Z-19', (a la Aeroelectric Connection).=C2=A0 The brand= new engine was last started in July 2007 and run for about 1 hour with the= EC2/EM2 to a maximum RPM of about 3200, but with different coils. The igni= ter/coil combination burned out, thus leading to the electrical system rede= sign. The entire electrical system has been replaced with the Z19.=20 Here is what I have so far: 5/2/2009- EC2 Diagnostic checks: EC2 relay check for A & B controller - OK Injector test - OK Coil test - OK EC2 Knob checks (Hex readout) - OK 5/3/2009 Crank Sensor test - OK Fuel pressure - FP 1 brings pressure to 43 psi. FP 1 + 2 raises pressure to= 46 psi. Sound of FP 1 is a steady whine. Sound of FP 2 is kind of up and d= own, but pressure remains at 43 without variation.=C2=A0 The two fuel pumps= are purchased from Tracy/RWS. When attempting to start a small amount of blue smoke is seen from the muff= ler. Not much. A few times it sounded like it almost started, but did not. = That is the exception. For the majority of attempts to start, the starter m= otor turns the prop over and the engine coughs but does not start. Thanks! --=20 Mike =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Mike Fontenot Apex Consulting & Services LLC Lakewood , Colorado 303 / 731-6645 mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --0-1567240619-1241411210=:28674 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,
First off great choice of engines.
If is has to be a piston engine the Geo 1.3L is a very good relia= ble choice.
I completely agree with Ed's analysis of your engine's condition and p= robable issue.
According to my Geo Metro manual the timing should be 10 deg.BTDC= at 700-800 RPM.
The firing order for the 1.3L is 1 3 4 2. Be sure that you have that c= orrect as well.
Blue smoke could also be the result of any oil that may have found it = way into the cylinders.
Let us know about your progress.
 
Jim

--- On Sun, 5/3/09, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolin= a.rr.com> wrote:
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Initial Engine (not) starting with = EC2 - suggestions appreciated!
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyro= tary@lancaironline.net>
Date: Sunday, May 3, 2009, 7:01 PM

Hi Mike,

 <= /DIV>

As I understand your = situation, you had the engine running for an hour previously until the igni= tor/coil combination burned out.  You then redesigned your electrical = system using Bob K=E2=80=99s Z19 diagram.  Now you can not get the eng= ine to start and all test=E2=80=99s appear OK.

 <= /DIV>

The first axiom of tr= ouble shooting is if things worked before a change and no longer work after= a change suspect some problem with what you changed, which sounds like the= entire electrical system. 

 <= /DIV>

Your injectors are cl= icking and your spark is sparking if I understand your injector and coil te= st.  So you should have fuel and fire.  That would lead me to sus= pect that either you are getting too much fuel or perhaps your ignition tim= ing is not adjusted properly.

 <= /DIV>

 I presume you h= ave checked your static timing mark and that is also OK?  I don=E2=80= =99t know what it should be for the GEO but for the rotary its set around 3= 0Deg BTDC.  But blue smoke sounds like too much fuel to me =E2=80=93 t= hat could be from too much being injected or perhaps more likely - an accum= ulation of fuel due to failed starts.  My experience is =E2=80=9Ccough= s=E2=80=9D as contrasted with =E2=80=9Cpops=E2=80=9D tends to indicate a ri= ch mixture while =E2=80=9CPops=E2=80=99 a lean mixture. 

 <= /DIV>

Assuming that your fu= el map and EC2 settings are the same before and after wiring change, then I= would assume you are getting correct fuel =E2=80=93 that would tend then t= o leave ignition or timing.  Since you are getting spark (Coil test = =E2=80=93 OK), I would suspect ignition timing.

 <= /DIV>

My recommendation is = to ensure that your static timing for your ignition is what it should be.

 <= /DIV>

I will take a look at= Z19, but it would be helpful if you have a copy of your wiring diagram as = it is in you installation posted to the list.

 <= /DIV>

Ed

Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Fontenot
= Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 5:2= 2 PM
To: Rotary motors i= n aircraft
Subject: [Fly= Rotary] Initial Engine (not) starting with EC2 - suggestions appreciated!

 

I have just this weekend gotten my rebuilt electrical sys= tem to the point of being able to try and start the engine. I thought I wou= ld post what is going on so far, and ask for any advice and suggestions abo= ut continued debugging. I'm a noob at this so suggestions are appreciated. = Thanks in advance!

I have the EC2 + EM 2 system, on a GEO 1.3 liter = 4 cylinder engine. The electrical system is a 'Z-19', (a la Aeroelectric Co= nnection).  The brand new engine was last started in July 2007 and run= for about 1 hour with the EC2/EM2 to a maximum RPM of about 3200, but with= different coils. The igniter/coil combination burned out, thus leading to = the electrical system redesign. The entire electrical system has been repla= ced with the Z19.

Here is what I have so far:

5/2/2009- EC2 = Diagnostic checks:
EC2 relay check for A & B controller - OK
Injector test - OK
Coil test - OK
EC2 Knob checks (Hex readout= ) - OK

5/3/2009
Crank Sensor test - OK
Fuel pressure - FP 1 br= ings pressure to 43 psi. FP 1 + 2 raises pressure to 46 psi. Sound of FP 1 = is a steady whine. Sound of FP 2 is kind of up and down, but pressure remai= ns at 43 without variation.  The two fuel pumps are purchased from Tra= cy/RWS.

When attempting to start a small amount of blue smoke is see= n from the muffler. Not much. A few times it sounded like it almost started= , but did not. That is the exception. For the majority of attempts to start= , the starter motor turns the prop over and the engine coughs but does not = start.

Thanks!

--
Mike

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
Mike Fontenot
Apex Consulting & Services LLC
Lakewood ,= Colorado
303 / 731-6645
mikef AT apexconsultingservices DOT com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

=
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