X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao103.cox.net ([68.230.241.43] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.13) with ESMTP id 3598846 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:18:41 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.43; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo01.cox.net ([70.169.32.71]) by fed1rmmtao103.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090428011741.PWKF4363.fed1rmmtao103.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:17:41 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.85.56]) by fed1rmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id kpHd1b0061CvZmk03pHg5H; Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:17:40 -0400 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=c8SwpcIXM1MA:10 a=3ffAHgaxx5oA:10 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=7PMtrj-p5hMiV2azkGYA:9 a=oQU73V3cJ45BUOJuWZkA:7 a=zhJg42X9LomkFkowakenhilppwIA:4 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=eAO8WfwPwjOpS_ao:21 a=y0galWVVND3f3VqO:21 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=sDlqkHIUAuLXBOwSWs4A:9 a=PgChUvvogbL4kLZ6nOsA:7 a=iKkM1qcHFS9eDr__msK1TmgDKUkA:4 a=iVkDmfvjeKcA:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Electrical System Nightmares Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:17:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0068_01C9C764.71B2F3A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C9C764.71B2F3A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This was the reason I was hesitant to bring this up in the first place. = Because I didnt want to put Tracy in the position of having to get = involved in a lengthy on-line debate. I ultimately decided to bring this = up because I've had numerous direct emails asking why my flight tests = seem to have come to a halt. I'll emphasize again, based on the success = of other users of the EC2, that I believe that my current issues are = installation related, not design related. Hopefully the changes I've = made will resolve these issues and my flight testing can resume = normally. Had my original plans worked out my single point ground should have = worked out well with my battery located directly under the EC2 per Vans = plans. Unfortunately, my RV is a nose heavy pig and the batteries ended = up in the baggage area. I should have abandoned the single point ground = at this point and grounded the battery to the airframe. I didnt do that = and stubbornly stuck with the single point ground, so I now have about = 7' of 0 gauge wire between the negative terminal of the batteries and my = common ground on the firewall. This is the first thing Tracy told me to = change. While making the change, there were a number of other things = that needed changed as well. As a result of this and a number of other = unrelated issues, I havent gotten the airplane back together enough to = test it. Hopefully in the next couple of weeks I'll have it together = again. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 10:56 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Electrical System Nightmares Position 0 (zero) is where the Mode switch should be for starting and = shutdown. My experience so far indicates that electrical noise in various parts = of the electrical system is the cause of the 'spontaneous' programming = errors. This is a long subject that I am going to have to address. It = has to do with the physical arrangement of the aircraft electrical = system, not an error in connections. There is no one simple fix for = this kind of problem which is caused by builders having no guidlines on = how to avoid this kind of thing. Bad radio installation practices or = poor antenna design or installation can also be a nightmare to explain = or fix. I talked to a number of vendors of aircraft systems at SnF that are = having a hell of a time addressing this. Everything from auto pilots = to Glass cockpit makers are having this problem. Builders always = conclude that we are passing the buck when we say that electrical noise = is the problem. And that's just a polite way of saying that "Your = electrical system and layout sucks". Even very knowledgable builders = can fall into this problem. Mike Wills made a technically perfect = system with a Single Point ground scheme which is theoretically the = right thing to do but the single point ground had a very high noise = impedance due to the long distance between it and the main noise damper = (the battery).=20 Here is a VERY abreviated guideline. If you do a single point ground = system, make it at (or very near) the negative terminal of the battery = and ground the airframe close to it. Have independant power feeds from = the battery positive terminal for the noise producing things and the = noise sensitive things. Do these two things and noise problems will be = rare. I'll try to write up some more detailed guidelines on the subject when = I get the mess left by the flood cleaned up. BTW, SnF was great fun and enjoyed seeing many of you rotor-heads = there. Only trouble was a failed fuel transfer pump on the way back = home. Pump (and plane) is 15 years old. I noticed it shortly after = switching it on because left fuel gauge didn't go up and right gauge = didn't go down but I had just enough fuel in left side to make it back. = Kept lots of alternative landing strips in sight along the way. Only = had about a gallon left after landing. Pay attention to those fuel = gauges!=20 Had to wade back to the house because road into Shady Bend was still = under water. Tracy Crook (doing flood cleanup)=20 On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Bill Bradburry = wrote: Rino, Are you saying that you SHOULD or SHOULD NOT stop and start the = engine with the switch in position nine?? I assume that you are only = talking about when you are trying to change the programming?? Tracy?? Bill B=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Rino Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 6:05 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Forced landings I had a memory loss similar to yours on the A controller a few times = when I was programming the mixture. I then realized that it appened = when I left (forgot) the push switch on position 9 of the controller, = stop and start the engine. Stop and start the engine while the switch = is in position 9 instead of 0. Never happened again after that. Rino ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Wills=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 12:50 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Forced landings Bill, I got my staging issues under control by following others advice = and moving the staging point up in the RPM range. Unfortunately I have had two random cases of the EC2 loosing = pieces of its non-volatile memory. The last case was the worst - the = entire B program appears to have been lost. It would not run at any = throttle setting on B. Fortunately I found this on the ground during a = preflight runup. Copying A to B restored the program and the engine runs = fine. I'd sure like to find something conclusive to indicate what = happened, but this was 2 random events in over 20 hours of engine = running and I have no idea what triggered it. I've exchanged emails with = Tracy and he says its likely a grounding issue. So I've spend the last = month going through all of my wiring looking for some sort of problem. = Havent found anything on the ground side. As mentioned previously I do have a little hum noticeable in the = headset when the alternator is energized. I was preparing to look into = this - dug out the O'scope and everything - when the stupid fuel tanks = (both) decided to start leaking 1 1/2 years after I first put fuel in = them. Just about have the leaks resolved and time to get back on the = electrical. If I can get rid of the hum then I'll probably still be = looking at a couple of hours of ground running before I'm willing to fly = it again. Intermittant problems suck. Thing is you never really know if = whatever caused it has somehow been fixed unless you actually find an = obvious smoking gun. Not clear to me that I am going to find that. I've been hesitant to post about this unless/until I had = something conclusive. Didnt want anyone to leap to the conclusion that = there is an EC2 issue. I assume that whatever it is, its particular to = my install. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:01 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Forced landings Mike, What kinds of problems are you having? Looking back over your = posts, it looks like you were having problems with the staging set right = over your approach power setting. What else is happening and have you = moved the staging yet? Bill B=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:24 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Forced landings Al, OK, I can accept that. It may seem from some of my recent posts = that I'm down on the rotary - not the case. I just want to make sure = that we paint a fair picture which is frequently not the case on an = enthusiasts website. I'm probably a little negatively biased right now having done = my first couple of flights, come across a couple of problems that are = unresolved, and am currently grounded. I really want to fly this thing = again but havent had as much time as I would like to fix the problems = and get it airworthy again. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 1:08 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Forced landings Al, I understand and agree with what you are saying regarding the = experimental nature of these one off installations. But if you dont = compare them to the norm, what do you compare them to? I guarantee you = that is what the LyCont flyers are comparing them to Mike; Sorry I wasn=92t clear =96 I meant it wasn=92t a fair = comparison during the first couple hundred hours, while we are still in = the debugging phase. After tha, go ahead and compare. If we can get to = some comparable reliability level in that short a time, compared to = their 100=92s of thousands of hours, we=92re really on to something. I=92m actually not an avid proponent of alternative engines. = I just happened to have chosen that route, and it=92s been a rewarding = challenge; and working well. Al G ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C9C764.71B2F3A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This was the reason I was hesitant to = bring this up=20 in the first place. Because I didnt want to put Tracy in the = position of=20 having to get involved in a lengthy on-line debate. I ultimately = decided to=20 bring this up because I've had numerous direct emails asking why my = flight=20 tests seem to have come to a halt. I'll emphasize again, based on the = success of=20 other users of the EC2, that I believe that my current issues=20 are installation related, not design related. Hopefully the = changes=20 I've made will resolve these issues and my flight testing can resume=20 normally.
 
Had my original plans worked out my = single point=20 ground should have worked out well with my battery located directly = under the=20 EC2 per Vans plans. Unfortunately, my RV is a nose heavy pig and the = batteries=20 ended up in the baggage area. I should have abandoned the single point = ground at=20 this point and grounded the battery to the airframe. I didnt do that and = stubbornly stuck with the single point ground, so I now have about 7' of = 0 gauge=20 wire between the negative terminal of the batteries and my common ground = on the=20 firewall. This is the first thing Tracy told me to change. While = making the=20 change, there were a number of other things that needed changed as well. = As a=20 result of this and a number of other unrelated issues, I havent = gotten the=20 airplane back together enough to test it. Hopefully in the next couple = of weeks=20 I'll have it together again.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 = N144MW   
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy=20 Crook
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 = 10:56=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Electrical=20 System Nightmares

Position 0 (zero) is where the Mode switch should be = for=20 starting and shutdown.

My experience so far indicates = that =20 electrical noise in various parts of the electrical system is the = cause of the=20 'spontaneous' programming errors.  This is a long subject that I = am going=20 to have to address.  It has to do with the physical arrangement = of the=20 aircraft electrical system, not an error in connections.  There = is=20 no  one simple fix for this kind of problem which is caused by = builders=20 having no guidlines on how to avoid this kind of thing.   = Bad radio=20 installation practices or poor antenna design or installation can also = be a=20 nightmare to explain or fix.

I talked to a number of vendors of = aircraft systems at SnF that are having a hell of a time addressing = this.=20   Everything from auto pilots to Glass cockpit makers are having = this=20 problem.  Builders always conclude that we are passing the buck = when we=20 say that electrical noise is the problem.   And that's just a = polite way=20 of saying that "Your electrical system and layout sucks".    = Even=20 very knowledgable builders can fall into this problem.  Mike = Wills made a=20 technically perfect system with a Single Point ground scheme which is=20 theoretically the right thing to do but the single point ground had a = very=20 high noise impedance due to the long distance between it and the main = noise=20 damper (the battery).

Here is a VERY abreviated guideline. =   If=20 you do a single point ground system, make it at (or very near)  = the=20 negative terminal of the battery and ground the airframe close to=20 it.   Have independant power feeds from the battery positive = terminal for the noise producing things and the noise sensitive=20 things.   Do these two things and noise problems will be=20 rare.

I'll try to write up some more detailed guidelines on the = subject=20 when I get the mess left by the flood cleaned up.

BTW, SnF was = great=20 fun and enjoyed seeing many of you rotor-heads there.  Only = trouble was a=20 failed fuel transfer pump on the way back home.  Pump (and plane) = is 15=20 years old.  I noticed it shortly after switching it on  = because left=20 fuel gauge didn't go up and right gauge didn't go down  but I had = just=20 enough fuel in left side to make it back. Kept lots of alternative = landing=20 strips in sight along the way.  Only had about a gallon left = after=20 landing.     Pay attention to those fuel gauges! =

Had to=20 wade back to the house because road into Shady Bend was still under=20 water.

Tracy Crook (doing flood cleanup)


On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Bill = Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= =20 wrote:

Rino,

Are you=20 saying that you SHOULD or SHOULD NOT stop and start the engine with = the=20 switch in position nine??  I assume that you are only talking = about=20 when you are trying to change the programming??

 

Tracy??

 

Bill=20 B 

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Rino
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 = 6:05 AM


To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Forced landings

I had a memory loss = similar to=20 yours on the A controller a few times when I was programming the=20 mixture.  I then realized that it appened when I left = (forgot) the=20 push switch on position 9 of the controller, stop and start the=20 engine.  Stop and start the engine while the switch is in = position 9=20 instead of 0.  Never happened again after = that.

 

Rino

 

 

----- Original = Message -----=20

From: Mike=20 Wills

To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft

Sent:=20 Monday, April 20, 2009 12:50 AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Forced landings

 

Bill,

 

 I got my = staging issues=20 under control by following others advice and moving the staging = point up=20 in the RPM range.

 

 Unfortunately = I have had=20 two random cases of the EC2 loosing pieces of its = non-volatile=20 memory. The last case was the worst - the entire B program appears = to have=20 been lost. It would not run at any throttle setting on B. = Fortunately I=20 found this on the ground during a preflight runup. Copying A to B = restored=20 the program and the engine runs fine. I'd sure like to find = something=20 conclusive to indicate what happened, but this was 2 random events = in over=20 20 hours of engine running and I have no idea what triggered it.=20 I've exchanged emails with Tracy and he says its likely a = grounding=20 issue. So I've spend the last month going through all of my wiring = looking=20 for some sort of problem. Havent found anything on the ground=20 side.

 

 As mentioned = previously=20 I do have a little hum noticeable in the headset when the = alternator is=20 energized. I was preparing to look into this - dug out the O'scope = and=20 everything - when the stupid fuel tanks (both) decided to = start=20 leaking  1 1/2 years after I first put fuel in them. Just = about have=20 the leaks resolved and time to get back on the electrical. If I = can get=20 rid of the hum then I'll probably still be looking at a couple of = hours of=20 ground running before I'm willing to fly it = again.

 

 Intermittant = problems=20 suck. Thing is you never really know if whatever caused it has = somehow=20 been fixed unless you actually find an obvious smoking gun. Not = clear to=20 me that I am going to find that.

 

 I've been = hesitant to=20 post about this unless/until I had something conclusive. Didnt = want anyone=20 to leap to the conclusion that there is an EC2 issue. I assume = that=20 whatever it is, its particular to my = install.

 

Mike=20 Wills

RV-4=20 N144MW 

----- Original = Message -----=20

From: Bill Bradburry

To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft

Sent:=20 Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:01 AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Forced landings

 

Mike,

What kinds of problems are you = having? =20 Looking back over your posts, it looks like you were having = problems=20 with the staging set right over your approach power = setting.  What=20 else is happening and have you moved the staging = yet?

Bill B 

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike = Wills
Sent: Sunday, April 19, = 2009 11:24=20 AM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Forced landings

Al,

 

 OK, I can = accept that.=20 It may seem from some of my recent posts that I'm  down on = the=20 rotary - not the case. I just want to make sure that we paint a = fair=20 picture which is frequently not the case on an enthusiasts=20 website.

 

 I'm probably = a little=20 negatively biased right now having done my first couple of = flights, come=20 across a couple of problems that are unresolved, and am = currently=20 grounded. I really want to fly this thing again but havent had = as much=20 time as I would like to fix the problems and get it airworthy=20 again.

 

Mike=20 Wills

RV-4=20 N144MW

----- Original = Message=20 -----

From:=20 Al Gietzen

Sent:=20 Saturday, April 18, 2009 1:08 PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Forced landings

 

Al,

 

 I = understand and=20 agree with what you are saying regarding the experimental = nature of=20 these one off installations. But if you dont compare them to = the norm,=20 what do you compare them to? I guarantee you that is what the = LyCont=20 flyers are comparing them to

Mike;

 

Sorry I=20 wasn=92t clear =96 I meant it wasn=92t a fair comparison = during the first=20 couple hundred hours, while we are still in the debugging = phase. After=20 tha, go ahead and compare.  If we can get to some = comparable=20 reliability level in that short a time, compared to their = 100=92s of=20 thousands of hours, we=92re really on to = something.

 

I=92m=20 actually not an avid proponent of alternative engines.  I = just=20 happened to have chosen that route, and it=92s been a = rewarding=20 challenge; and working well.

 

Al=20 G

 


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