X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-qy0-f136.google.com ([209.85.221.136] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.13) with ESMTP id 3598352 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:56:41 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.136; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qyk42 with SMTP id 42so128084qyk.7 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:56:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=kTHz+IuAf7/YR9Wo6JD2Z3MpB/pM5QOheVwavuwwgCE=; b=Zk7BVNXtPhxJZY3i7ca6MDxn0Gmg5CfpOCWuke2+mrwqsL+NRPqMnnQzYZxmLqoH5w bHVbd7fM7VhIkBjvWytKW65IMaCgRKbQL2O6mZ/N5UMKBZSpQak9bj8MEipdKR5jOWSc PcYeOUu2KmeEeGbfNZlU7m4WVSivVBjCIYgpI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; b=JH0Qx4jIgxFqbt5Iu5KCXYq2mbntvyxXR6rrTS/w4y+Chej+ksxdEO1isxhjfWBVQ0 eJadY9s92QIjbi4zmdiQtZrBSDybw4ZlGE3Z/L2aK0n0fLC9oaECz52EFks7i3FoysUN Q6nGbYzK9/TK2KqXjh2KLIgS8DhqLl/Qx63Ac= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.3.2 with SMTP id 2mr6284305qal.367.1240854963865; Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:56:03 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: f2bebc72c0779176 Message-ID: <1b4b137c0904271056n4cf3bdfeh3a7eae08fb7f7885@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Electrical System Nightmares From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175ca89656c85904688d0ff9 --0015175ca89656c85904688d0ff9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Position 0 (zero) is where the Mode switch should be for starting and shutdown. My experience so far indicates that electrical noise in various parts of the electrical system is the cause of the 'spontaneous' programming errors. This is a long subject that I am going to have to address. It has to do with the physical arrangement of the aircraft electrical system, not an error in connections. There is no one simple fix for this kind of problem which is caused by builders having no guidlines on how to avoid this kind o= f thing. Bad radio installation practices or poor antenna design or installation can also be a nightmare to explain or fix. I talked to a number of vendors of aircraft systems at SnF that are having = a hell of a time addressing this. Everything from auto pilots to Glass cockpit makers are having this problem. Builders always conclude that we are passing the buck when we say that electrical noise is the problem. An= d that's just a polite way of saying that "Your electrical system and layout sucks". Even very knowledgable builders can fall into this problem. Mik= e Wills made a technically perfect system with a Single Point ground scheme which is theoretically the right thing to do but the single point ground ha= d a very high noise impedance due to the long distance between it and the mai= n noise damper (the battery). Here is a VERY abreviated guideline. If you do a single point ground system, make it at (or very near) the negative terminal of the battery and ground the airframe close to it. Have independant power feeds from the battery positive terminal for the noise producing things and the noise sensitive things. Do these two things and noise problems will be rare. I'll try to write up some more detailed guidelines on the subject when I ge= t the mess left by the flood cleaned up. BTW, SnF was great fun and enjoyed seeing many of you rotor-heads there. Only trouble was a failed fuel transfer pump on the way back home. Pump (and plane) is 15 years old. I noticed it shortly after switching it on because left fuel gauge didn't go up and right gauge didn't go down but I had just enough fuel in left side to make it back. Kept lots of alternative landing strips in sight along the way. Only had about a gallon left after landing. Pay attention to those fuel gauges! Had to wade back to the house because road into Shady Bend was still under water. Tracy Crook (doing flood cleanup) On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > Rino, > > Are you saying that you SHOULD or SHOULD NOT stop and start the engine wi= th > the switch in position nine?? I assume that you are only talking about w= hen > you are trying to change the programming?? > > > > Tracy?? > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Rino > *Sent:* Monday, April 20, 2009 6:05 AM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Forced landings > > I had a memory loss similar to yours on the A controller a few times when= I > was programming the mixture. I then realized that it appened when I left > (forgot) the push switch on position 9 of the controller, stop and start = the > engine. Stop and start the engine while the switch is in position 9 inst= ead > of 0. Never happened again after that. > > > > Rino > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Mike Wills > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > *Sent:* Monday, April 20, 2009 12:50 AM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Forced landings > > > > Bill, > > > > I got my staging issues under control by following others advice and > moving the staging point up in the RPM range. > > > > Unfortunately I have had two random cases of the EC2 loosing pieces of i= ts > non-volatile memory. The last case was the worst - the entire B program > appears to have been lost. It would not run at any throttle setting on B. > Fortunately I found this on the ground during a preflight runup. Copying = A > to B restored the program and the engine runs fine. I'd sure like to find > something conclusive to indicate what happened, but this was 2 random eve= nts > in over 20 hours of engine running and I have no idea what triggered it. > I've exchanged emails with Tracy and he says its likely a grounding issue= . > So I've spend the last month going through all of my wiring looking for s= ome > sort of problem. Havent found anything on the ground side. > > > > As mentioned previously I do have a little hum noticeable in the headset > when the alternator is energized. I was preparing to look into this - dug > out the O'scope and everything - when the stupid fuel tanks (both) decide= d > to start leaking 1 1/2 years after I first put fuel in them. Just about > have the leaks resolved and time to get back on the electrical. If I can = get > rid of the hum then I'll probably still be looking at a couple of hours o= f > ground running before I'm willing to fly it again. > > > > Intermittant problems suck. Thing is you never really know if whatever > caused it has somehow been fixed unless you actually find an obvious smok= ing > gun. Not clear to me that I am going to find that. > > > > I've been hesitant to post about this unless/until I had something > conclusive. Didnt want anyone to leap to the conclusion that there is an = EC2 > issue. I assume that whatever it is, its particular to my install. > > > > Mike Wills > > RV-4 N144MW > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Bill Bradburry > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > *Sent:* Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:01 AM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Forced landings > > > > Mike, > > What kinds of problems are you having? Looking back over your posts, it > looks like you were having problems with the staging set right over your > approach power setting. What else is happening and have you moved the > staging yet? > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mike Wills > *Sent:* Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:24 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Forced landings > > Al, > > > > OK, I can accept that. It may seem from some of my recent posts that I'm > down on the rotary - not the case. I just want to make sure that we paint= a > fair picture which is frequently not the case on an enthusiasts website. > > > > I'm probably a little negatively biased right now having done my first > couple of flights, come across a couple of problems that are unresolved, = and > am currently grounded. I really want to fly this thing again but havent h= ad > as much time as I would like to fix the problems and get it airworthy aga= in. > > > > Mike Wills > > RV-4 N144MW > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Al Gietzen > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > > *Sent:* Saturday, April 18, 2009 1:08 PM > > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Forced landings > > > > Al, > > > > I understand and agree with what you are saying regarding the experiment= al > nature of these one off installations. But if you dont compare them to th= e > norm, what do you compare them to? I guarantee you that is what the LyCon= t > flyers are comparing them to > > Mike; > > > > Sorry I wasn=92t clear =96 I meant it wasn=92t a fair comparison during t= he first > couple hundred hours, while we are still in the debugging phase. After th= a, > go ahead and compare. If we can get to some comparable reliability level= in > that short a time, compared to their 100=92s of thousands of hours, we=92= re > really on to something. > > > > I=92m actually not an avid proponent of alternative engines. I just happ= ened > to have chosen that route, and it=92s been a rewarding challenge; and wor= king > well. > > > > Al G > > > > --0015175ca89656c85904688d0ff9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Position 0 (zero) is where the Mode switch should be for starting and shutd= own.

My experience so far indicates that=A0 electrical noise in vari= ous parts of the electrical system is the cause of the 'spontaneous'= ; programming errors.=A0 This is a long subject that I am going to have to = address.=A0 It has to do with the physical arrangement of the aircraft elec= trical system, not an error in connections.=A0 There is no=A0 one simple fi= x for this kind of problem which is caused by builders having no guidlines = on how to avoid this kind of thing.=A0=A0 Bad radio installation practices = or poor antenna design or installation can also be a nightmare to explain o= r fix.

I talked to a number of vendors of aircraft systems at SnF that are hav= ing a hell of a time addressing this. =A0 Everything from auto pilots to Gl= ass cockpit makers are having this problem.=A0 Builders always conclude tha= t we are passing the buck when we say that electrical noise is the problem.= =A0 And that's just a polite way of saying that "Your electrical = system and layout sucks". =A0=A0 Even very knowledgable builders can f= all into this problem.=A0 Mike Wills made a technically perfect system with= a Single Point ground scheme which is theoretically the right thing to do = but the single point ground had a very high noise impedance due to the long= distance between it and the main noise damper (the battery).

Here is a VERY abreviated guideline. =A0 If you do a single point groun= d system, make it at (or very near)=A0 the negative terminal of the battery= and ground the airframe close to it.=A0=A0 Have independant power feeds fr= om the battery positive terminal for the noise producing things and the noi= se sensitive things.=A0=A0 Do these two things and noise problems will be r= are.

I'll try to write up some more detailed guidelines on the subject w= hen I get the mess left by the flood cleaned up.

BTW, SnF was great = fun and enjoyed seeing many of you rotor-heads there.=A0 Only trouble was a= failed fuel transfer pump on the way back home.=A0 Pump (and plane) is 15 = years old.=A0 I noticed it shortly after switching it on=A0 because left fu= el gauge didn't go up and right gauge didn't go down=A0 but I had j= ust enough fuel in left side to make it back. Kept lots of alternative land= ing strips in sight along the way.=A0 Only had about a gallon left after la= nding.=A0=A0 =A0 Pay attention to those fuel gauges!

Had to wade back to the house because road into Shady Bend was still un= der water.

Tracy Crook (doing flood cleanup)


On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsou= th.net> wrote:

Rino,

Are you saying that you SHOULD or SHOULD NOT stop and start the engine with the switch in position nine??=A0 I assume that you are only talking about when you are trying to change the programming??

=A0

Tracy??

=A0

Bill B=A0

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Rino
Sent: Monday, April 20, 20= 09 6:05 AM


To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: F= orced landings

I had a memory loss similar to yours on the A controller a few times when I was programming the mixture.=A0 I then realized that it=A0appened when I left (forgot) the push switch on position 9 of the controller, stop and start the engine.=A0 Stop and start the engine while the switch is in position 9 instead of 0.=A0 Never happened again after that.

=A0

Rino

=A0

=A0

----- Original Message -----

<= span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold;">From= : Mike Wills

Sent: Monday= , April 20, 2009 12:50 AM

Subject: [Fl= yRotary] Re: Forced landings

=A0

Bill,

=A0

=A0I got my staging issues under control by following others advice and moving the staging point up in the RPM range.

=A0

=A0Unfortunately I have had two=A0random cases of the EC2 loosing pieces of its non-volatile memory. The last case was the worst = - the entire B program appears to have been lost. It would not run at any throttle setting on B. Fortunately I found this on the ground during a pref= light runup. Copying A to B restored the program and the engine runs fine.=A0I= 9;d sure like to find something conclusive to indicate what happened, but this = was 2 random events in over 20 hours of engine running and I have no idea what triggered it. I've=A0exchanged emails with Tracy and he says its likely= a grounding issue. So I've spend the last month going through all of my wiring look= ing for some sort of problem. Havent found anything on the ground side.

=A0

=A0As mentioned previously I do have a little hum noticeable in the headset when the alternator is energized. I was preparing= to look into this - dug out the O'scope and everything - when=A0the stupid= fuel tanks (both) decided to start leaking=A0 1 1/2 years after I first put fuel in them. Just about have the leaks resolved and time to get back on the electrical. If I can get rid of the hum then I'll probably still be loo= king at a couple of hours of ground running before I'm willing to fly it again.=

=A0

=A0Intermittant problems suck. Thing is you never really know if whatever caused it has somehow been fixed unless you actually find = an obvious smoking gun. Not clear to me that I am going to find that.

=A0

=A0I've been hesitant to post about this unless/until I had something conclusive. Didnt want anyone to leap to the conclusion that there is an EC2 issue. I assume that whatever it is, its particular to my install.

=A0

Mike Wills

RV-4 N144MW=A0

----- Original Message -----

<= span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold;">From= : Bill Bradburry

Sent: Sunday= , April 19, 2009 11:01 AM

Subject: [Fl= yRotary] Re: Forced landings

=A0

Mike,

What kinds of problems are you having?=A0 Looking back over your posts, it looks like you were having problems with the staging set right ov= er your approach power setting.=A0 What else is happening and have you moved the staging yet?

Bill B=A0

=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 20= 09 11:24 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: F= orced landings

Al,

=A0

=A0OK, I can accept that. It may seem from some of my recent posts that I'm=A0 down on the rotary - not the case. I just want= to make sure that we paint a fair picture which is frequently not the case on = an enthusiasts website.

=A0

=A0I'm probably a little negatively biased right now having done my first couple of flights, come across a couple of problems th= at are unresolved, and am currently grounded. I really want to fly this thing again but havent had as much time as I would like to fix the problems and g= et it airworthy again.

=A0

Mike Wills

RV-4 N144MW

----- Original Message -----

<= span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold;">From= : Al Gietzen

Sent: Saturd= ay, April 18, 2009 1:08 PM

Subject: [Fl= yRotary] Re: Forced landings

=A0

Al,

= =A0

=A0I understand and agree with what you are saying regarding the experimental nature of these one off installations. But if you dont compare them to the norm, what do you compar= e them to? I guarantee you that is what the LyCont flyers are comparing them = to

Mike;

=A0

Sorry I wasn=92t clear =96 I meant it wasn=92t a fair comparison during the first couple hundred hours, while we are still in the debugging phase. After tha, go ahead and compare. =A0If we can get to some comparable reliability level in that short a time, compared to their 100=92s of thousands of hours, we=92re really on to something.

=A0

I=92m actually not an avid pro= ponent of alternative engines.=A0 I just happened to have chosen that route, and it=92s been a rewarding challenge; and working well.

=A0

Al G

= =A0


--0015175ca89656c85904688d0ff9--